Qigong and/Vs Modern Strength training

[Frost]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8...headweight.jpg

the whole idea behind it being general strength training is that its general, its not specific, you get the legs very strong, explosive and powerful, you work on single leg movements as well for stabalisation and then you make it specific.

Getting the legs stronger (quads, hamstrings, glutes, hip adbuctors etc) would go along way to making your leg attacks strong wouldn't you agree? and then work the throws against reistance, either bands or the weights you posted or an actual heavy opponent (sports specific training)


oh and i wouldn't ask a body builder i'd ask a sports performace coach he might have the answer, afterall its his job to get these guys fit and ready for action. Its what the top judo and wrestlers do, they train the same way strength first and then make it specific to the task at hand

[uki]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8...headweight.jpg

thanks for sharing... great exercise!!!

[Frost]

Frost,

Hello,

Not always... For sprinters, okay, sure...Sport specific, depends on the movement and too many other things to list here. I doubt that practicing sprinting slow would hurt a sprinter's structure, but I am not a part of that field of sports so I don't want to speculate about that.

But, go buy a wiffle ball bat and practice swinging it as fast as you can then swing a regular bat. Opposite, put weight rings on the end of the regular bat and do the same thing. You will swing faster after practicing with the wiffle ball bat or no bat at all. Same goes for a golf club. In Western terms, it's because of muscle memory, basically and only basically. But, it wont work with extremes; like if you do it with a wushu Tiger Fork then a 90 pound Tiger Fork.

It really depends on what you are doing and how you are tricking your body.

Then again, anyone who isn't doing both is lying to themselves about their potential.

Will someone who practices on a 200 pound heavy bag be faster or slower than someone who practices on a 300 pound heavy bag? It varies, and depends on what they are practicing on the heavy bag, right?

true but generally if you get a guy stronger (power lifts), more explosive (OL lifts jumps, medicine ball throws etc) you generally end up with a guy who will pitch harder, hit harder etc, that’s what I mean by making its sports specific, I don't mean using weight bats, etc, I know the functional guys like to do this but I am more of the defranco/cressey school of thought when it comes to strength and sports training. Get yourself stronger and faster and then practise your sports, I don't like it when people use implements that change the biomechanics of the sports: bates heavier than the ones they will use, dumbbells for punches etc but that’s just my view.

[taai gihk yahn]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8...headweight.jpg

how is that a "special" muscle function? muscles function in only one of three ways - concentrically (shortening), eccentrically (lengthening) and isometric (static holding); you isolate or combine these three types of contractions with other variables such as weight, velocity, etc. to get desired effects - as for this movement, based purely on the static image, it looks like it's concentric hip flexion combined with isometric ankle dorsiflexion and knee flexion, and of course there is a lot of core pelvis stabilization going on as well - of course a video clip would allow a more precise assessment;

[sanjuro_ronin]

To echo what Chris and Frost have said, strengthening the muscles in a general way is what builds them up so that they can be strengthened in a SPECIFIC way.
Its like building Chi all over and then sending it to a specific point, while you MAY be able to develop chi in a specific area only, it is far better to cultivate it all over ( general) and then in particular ( specific).
MST advocates this because it has found that it build specifc strength better that way.
While in theory this MAY seem to contrdict the view: The whole is only as strong as the sum of its parts, ie: work the parts and the whole gets better.
In reality building up strength in general ( all over) is better than building up strenght in specific because the body adapts better to WHOLE stimulation than partial.
This is why a guy that deadlifts and doesn't do curl will have stronger biceps than a guy the curls and doesn't do DL- the DL allows more weight to be used and effects the whole body as opposed to just the biceps, those making the whole body stronger, including the biceps.

[Drake]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?

A guy named Harry Wong (I know, Paul!) brought out a book a while back called "Dynamic Tension" that followed that theory. He studied San Soo, I believe.

[taai gihk yahn]

In reality building up strength in general ( all over) is better than building up strenght in specific because the body adapts better to WHOLE stimulation than partial.
This is why a guy that deadlifts and doesn't do curl will have stronger biceps than a guy the curls and doesn't do DL- the DL allows more weight to be used and effects the whole body as opposed to just the biceps, those making the whole body stronger, including the biceps.

qft - an individual muscle is only as "strong" as the base off of which it stabilizes: when u contact biceps concentricaly to do a curl, the distal end moves, but the proximal end stays stable - well what is it that stabilizes that? if u have weak scapular stabilizers, biceps will not be as strong; if u are standing while doing a curl and ur pelvic stabilizers are weak (e.g. - gluteus medius and maximus are two frequently inhibited muscles), etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A guy named Harry Wong (I know, Paul!) brought out a book a while back called "Dynamic Tension" that followed that theory. He studied San Soo, I believe.

LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.

[Drake]

LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.

Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

The ripped part had nothing to do with dynamic tension, the ripped look has to do with diet, as you know.
What ever happened to Harry Wong anyways?

[Drake]

The ripped part had nothing to do with dynamic tension, the ripped look has to do with diet, as you know.
What ever happened to Harry Wong anyways?

I was wondering the same thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I read the book ages ago, don't remember much though...maybe I should get my hands on it again...

[Scott R. Brown]

qft - an individual muscle is only as "strong" as the base off of which it stabilizes: when u contact biceps concentricaly to do a curl, the distal end moves, but the proximal end stays stable - well what is it that stabilizes that? if u have weak scapular stabilizers, biceps will not be as strong; if u are standing while doing a curl and ur pelvic stabilizers are weak (e.g. - gluteus medius and maximus are two frequently inhibited muscles), etc.

And if the exercise is performed while standing upon sand, then their house will be unstable....or something like that!

I know its true cuz its in the Bible!

LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.

I used to perform dynamic tension exercises regularly in my younger days as an adjunct to my MA training and weight training.

One can measure progress subjectively through perceived exertion, perceived fatigue and the results of perceived muscle control. It is actually quite an effective measure.

While I do not recommend dynamic tension as ones sole strength training method, I do recommend it as an adjunct.

And also if one cannot train in any other manner, of course

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can measure progress subjectively through perceived exertion, perceived fatigue and the results of perceived muscle control. It is actually quite an effective measure.

Perception can be tricky though.

Now, do we view DT as Qigong or as Modern ST? even though it is NOT modern at all?

[Scott R. Brown]

Perception can be tricky though.

Now, do we view DT as Qigong or as Modern ST? even though it is NOT modern at all?

It falls under the category of Hard Qigong.

Yes, "perceived" measures are notoriously unscientific and a poor measure at best. However, for experienced practitioners you can definitely "perceive" a benefit and difference over not performing the exercises at all.

It is a small step to performing some EMG tests however. It would be interesting to see. Also one could do some weight tests. Then perform solely DT and then retest.

I am not saying it made me stronger, I do not know, but my muscle control was phenomenal.