Qigong and/Vs Modern Strength training

[sanjuro_ronin]

It falls under the category of Hard Qigong.

Yes, "perceived" measures are notoriously unscientific and a poor measure at best. However, for experienced practitioners you can definitely "perceive" a benefit and difference over not performing the exercises at all.

It is a small step to performing some EMG tests however. It would be interesting to see. Also one could do some weight tests. Then perform solely DT and then retest.

I am not saying it made me stronger, I do not know, but my muscle control was phenomenal.

I'll get back to the hard qigong for a minute, but first:
Not too long ago I did a test for a friend of mine, he hooked up some elctromyosomethingorothers to my muscles as I did the Iron wire.
These things measure muscle activity, or muscle fibre recruitment, some crap like that.
Anyways, I did some moves at full tension and some at "just enough" and the muscles at full tension were as activated as when I was doing a ST exercise and was going to the point of failure ( not failure but close to it).
Example:
During a dip exercise, as I got close to failure about 92% of the chest muscles were "firing", and during a typical pressing ( Jai kui for example), is was close to the 90% also.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

[dirtyrat]

RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

is this Yang, Jwing-Ming's view? Because I thought he uses tension methods in his white crane system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

is this Yang, Jwing-Ming's view? Because I thought he uses tension methods in his white crane system.

It's funny you mention that because I recall the hard qigong from that book also.
perhaps because the Qigong in this other book is "soft" qi gong, that is why he states this.
Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

[goju]

Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

lol he probably just lifted weights and never did anything in his book he showed

[YouKnowWho]

they train the same way strength first and then make it specific to the task at hand

Both pathes may reach to the same goal if some of those TST methods also exist in the MST. So far I have not been able to find any equipment in the modern gym that can help me to develop "both arms twisting" ability yet (I go to 24 hours fitness center 3 times a week).

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

[dirtyrat]

It's funny you mention that because I recall the hard qigong from that book also.
perhaps because the Qigong in this other book is "soft" qi gong, that is why he states this.
Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

Supposedly the tension is used to create a surge of qi flow. Much like using your thumb to partially block the opening of a hose. Put a kink in the hose is like creating too much tension and thereby decrease the flow or obstruct it. I don't know really. Personally, the whole qigong theory is enough to make my head spin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Supposedly the tension is used to create a surge of qi flow. Much like using your thumb to partially block the opening of a hose. Put a kink in the hose is like creating too much tension and thereby decrease the flow or obstruct it. I don't know really. Personally, the whole qigong theory is enough to make my head spin.

See, that is what I was told also, the hard qigong exercises, such as the IW that I practice, "hold" the chi via the tension, one tenses the arms, the chi stays there and strengthens the arms.
The soft qi gong is about cultivating chi and allowing it to flow/sending it to certain parts and the hard qi gong "traps" the qi and build strenght and endurance in the tensed area.
One does/needs both hard and soft ( yin and yang) to balance the body.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll get back to the hard qigong for a minute, but first:
Not too long ago I did a test for a friend of mine, he hooked up some elctromyosomethingorothers to my muscles as I did the Iron wire.
These things measure muscle activity, or muscle fibre recruitment, some crap like that.
Anyways, I did some moves at full tension and some at "just enough" and the muscles at full tension were as activated as when I was doing a ST exercise and was going to the point of failure ( not failure but close to it).
Example:
During a dip exercise, as I got close to failure about 92% of the chest muscles were "firing", and during a typical pressing ( Jai kui for example), is was close to the 90% also.

Yes, the EMG will only tell you which muscles are being activated and what percentage of contraction!

The results are interesting, but what about dynamic tension? See if you can get him to measure that for you!

RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

Qi goes wherever the blood goes so the more blood the more Qi. As with weight training, perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns.

Or a muscle with a knot in it from tension, which is more like a spasm, is perhaps not the same as a muscle that is intentionally contracted.

[taai gihk yahn]

See, that is what I was told also, the hard qigong exercises, such as the IW that I practice, "hold" the chi via the tension, one tenses the arms, the chi stays there and strengthens the arms.
The soft qi gong is about cultivating chi and allowing it to flow/sending it to certain parts and the hard qi gong "traps" the qi and build strenght and endurance in the tensed area.
One does/needs both hard and soft ( yin and yang) to balance the body.

I think a lot of the so-called "hard" qigong is very similar to yogic pranayama practice, specifically what are called "bandus" or "locks" which are designed to get the kundalini to "rise"; physiologicaly, AFAI can tell, this stuff increases intrathoracic pressure, which, among other things, has the effect of stimulating the sympathetic chain that runs alongside the thoracic spine, which has the effect of creating a modified sympathetic response (fight/flight, adrenaline, etc.); that's why I think you get jazzed doing stuff like the wire - u r creating a controlled adrenaine state; which causes vasodilation and engages large muscle groups in general (FM goes out the window in symp resp); so that might b part of the strength effect...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The results are interesting, but what about dynamic tension? See if you can get him to measure that for you!

The IW I did was "dynamic tension"...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a lot of the so-called "hard" qigong is very similar to yogic pranayama practice, specifically what are called "bandus" or "locks" which are designed to get the kundalini to "rise"; physiologicaly, AFAI can tell, this stuff increases intrathoracic pressure, which, among other things, has the effect of stimulating the sympathetic chain that runs alongside the thoracic spine, which has the effect of creating a modified sympathetic response (fight/flight, adrenaline, etc.); that's why I think you get jazzed doing stuff like the wire - u r creating a controlled adrenaine state; which causes vasodilation and engages large muscle groups in general (FM goes out the window in symp resp); so that might b part of the strength effect...

Indeed, one does get "jazzed" when doing the IW or even Sanchin.
My Sifu said the reverse breathing used in some/all of the IW charges you up and I am not tired or drained after the IW, even when I push it near the 20 min mark, I am "energized".

[IronFist]

Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

I've always wondered that, too.

Maybe it ties in with the belief that the internal guys aren't using their muscles to move (so their qi has free reign to go wherever it wants). Cuz silly oldschool guys think you can contract your tendons or something. Traditional martial artists are worst than first year anatomy students who don't even know anything yet.

I mean obviously walking around with all your muscles tensed all day is a bad idea, but if you're moving at all it's because your muscles are contracting. You're not contracting your tendons, or your ligaments, or using your qi or anything else. Sorry oldschool qigong guys.

[taai gihk yahn]

I've always wondered that, too.

Maybe it ties in with the belief that the internal guys aren't using their muscles to move (so their qi has free reign to go wherever it wants). Cuz silly oldschool guys think you can contract your tendons or something. Traditional martial artists are worst than first year anatomy students who don't even know anything yet.

I mean obviously walking around with all your muscles tensed all day is a bad idea, but if you're moving at all it's because your muscles are contracting. You're not contracting your tendons, or your ligaments, or using your qi or anything else. Sorry oldschool qigong guys.

yeh, one of my mini-missions in life is to smack people (proverbially) on the head who spew that crap about "I'm not moving with muscle"; oh, really? well unless u r laying in a puddle of non-contractile tissue on the floor, u r - in fact, if u r breathing and hav a pulse, u r using muscle, LOL!

what they describe as "not muscle", is actually, IMPO, a more coordinated use of muscle and possibly functioning out of a coordinated effect of muscle function and how ground-reaction force transfers itself via connective tissue structures (including tendons); problem is, they don't have any appreciation for muscle / tendon / CT physiology, and so they just run wild with their strange ideas , which, for some bizzare reason, has them equating muscle function with something somehow lower, less desireable than whatever it is they think that they are doing;

of course, we could just hook em up to a surface EMG and let them do their "non-muscle" movement and see what happens....

[Scott R. Brown]

It is more likely that they meant their overall mental focus. It is probably something along the lines of a weight trainer focusing on their elbows when doing a chin up instead of their hands. A coach would say just that, "Pull with you elbows!" There is a slight difference in the feel of the exercise when one does this. Although the general action remains pretty much the same.

So more than likely they mean something along the lines of, "Don't TRY to do it!". Meaning don't force it or muscle it, let the technique do the work. It is like in Aikido....a well executed technique "appears" to happen on its own, without any effort at all. This gives the impressions that no muscle is used because it is technique and timing that makes it easy. So, using the mind rather than muscle would be more of the feeling of the action rather than an actual physiological fact which is, of course, impossible.