Progression without Chi Sao, is it possible?

[RGVWingChun]

What does prepare you? Doing it. Sparring/fighting in that environment and trying to work out for yourself (or with the help of someone who has already done the work) of how to make your art work -- how to put the pieces together. That's what we do every time we train. And we've spent hundreds of hours doing it.
.

If this statement is true, then ALL MARTIAL ARTS should be abandoned and one should NEVER train to fight, they should just fight on pure instinct without theory, without thought given to strategy, etc....

Sparring and fighting are still not the same thing...sparring still presupposes that the other guy is not trying to take your head off and or mame you or kill you like a real fight....sparring uses gloves or protective gear whereas fighting does not...figting is "bareknuckle" and no holds barred. Real fighting may use weapons of convenience like broken bottles, a knife, the curb of a sidewalk, multiple attackers, maybe even a gun....if "the only thing that prepares you is doing it" then logically your are saying forget training, just go pick a fight and see how you come out....

Moses

[m1k3]

If this statement is true, then ALL MARTIAL ARTS should be abandoned and one should NEVER train to fight, they should just fight on pure instinct without theory, without thought given to strategy, etc....

Sparring and fighting are still not the same thing...sparring still presupposes that the other guy is not trying to take your head off and or mame you or kill you like a real fight....sparring uses gloves or protective gear whereas fighting does not...figting is "bareknuckle" and no holds barred. Real fighting may use weapons of convenience like broken bottles, a knife, the curb of a sidewalk, multiple attackers, maybe even a gun....if "the only thing that prepares you is doing it" then logically your are saying forget training, just go pick a fight and see how you come out....

Moses

No, he's not saying that. He is saying train as close to fighting as you can. Make it realistic where your opponent is trying beat you. Use sporting rules to keep it safe but still put out a real effort. We do that all the time in BJJ. Does it develop my striking skills, no way, but it does give me very good grappling skills. It gives me a change to feel what it is like when someone is grappling me with the intent of winning. If I wanted to add striking I would do some MMA traing also but I don't really care to do that.

You can't train some things that happen in a fight but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put forth some realistic sparring at lots of different ranges.

Try reading why Kano choose the approach he did to Judo. The bottom line is that it works better than the traditional training methodologies.

[RGVWingChun]

No, he's not saying that. He is saying train as close to fighting as you can. Make it realistic where your opponent is trying beat you. Use sporting rules to keep it safe but still put out a real effort. We do that all the time in BJJ. Does it develop my striking skills, no way, but it does give me very good grappling skills. It gives me a change to feel what it is like when someone is grappling me with the intent of winning. If I wanted to add striking I would do some MMA traing also but I don't really care to do that.

You can't train some things that happen in a fight but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put forth some realistic sparring at lots of different ranges.

Try reading why Kano choose the approach he did to Judo. The bottom line is that it works better than the traditional training methodologies.

I agree with making training as close to reality as you can, but the fact remains that all training is just that: training. Chi sau is training....when I chi sau and teach chi sau I don't use "set structures" like a lot of people do and I'm sure there are plenty other out there that don't....we make attempts to truly control the other person and make use of the wing chun hand techniques in dynamic situations - not ones that are predictable.

I'm really not sure of Mr. Niehoff's chi sau background and how it was trained, but I think his understanding of it and mine are quite different and that is where I think he is drawing his conclusions from about the necessity of chi sau as I think his logic, if properly applied, would lead to the end of all martial art training.

Perhaps Mr. Niehoff would care to refine his position and say that training chi sau IN A CERTAIN WAY can be dangerous and antithetical to fighting just as "rolling" in BJJ the wrong way can be antithetical to real fighting as well. Chi Sau addresses certain instances in fighting - not all of fighting; in the same manner rolling in BJJ addresses ground/grappling aspects of fighting....

Again, my humble opinion

Moses

[YouKnowWho]

The day when WC guys can integrate head lock, reverse head lock, overhook, underhook, bear hug, waist control. arm wrapping, ... into their Chi Sao training, they may bring their art into a new dimension.

[SAAMAG]

Why can't you integrate it? Perhaps you wouldn't do it in chi sao, as that it training a different skill set, but there's no reason you can't do it with your spontaneous drilling and sparring.

[RGVWingChun]

The day when WC guys can integrate head lock, reverse head lock, overhook, underhook, bear hug, waist control. arm wrapping, ... into their Chi Sao training, they may bring their art into a new dimension.

I personally integrate joint locks when I can get em which would include getting to various chokes and small joint manipulation for added control to strike an opponent easier....

as per the hooks, if the other guy has correct energy, you leave that center and something should be coming through it! So I probably wouldn't hook in chi sau per se.....but I've had people try....keeps you on your toes

Moses

[YouKnowWho]

as per the hooks, if the other guy has correct energy, you leave that center and something should be coming through it! So I probably wouldn't hook in chi sau per se.....but I've had people try....keeps you on your toes.

The underhook is the counter for the overhook and vise verse. If you do it right, you should be able to disable both of your opponent's arms. Since your chest is touching your opponent's chest, your center line is not exposed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfGgS...ayer_embedded#

[SAAMAG]

While I agree the overhooks are a good controlling move, his sweep technique I wouldn't recommend on the concrete, not so smart to slam your own knees on the ground like that without a mat and kneepads.

I personally like the over under because it works well to throw and off balance the opponent better (for me) than the double overhooks.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The day when WC guys can integrate head lock, reverse head lock, overhook, underhook, bear hug, waist control. arm wrapping, ... into their Chi Sao training, they may bring their art into a new dimension.

***BEEN advocating this kind of thing for several years now.

And quite frankly, I believe that wing chun's future (for some wing chun people anyway)...will include this kind of thing as part of their regular curriculum.

The close quarters that wing chun fighting prefers, and of course the limb-to-limb bridging in chi sao and other related drills - that trains contact reflexes, balance manipulation, "trapping", very close range short punches and straight blasts, palm strikes, elbow strikes, etc...

can all work together nicely with headlocks, underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, knee strikes, bear hugs, waist control, etc - like the above quote mentions...and even bring, in other words, a new dimension to mma fighting: ie.- wing chun.

And the wrestling/grappling brings a new dimension to wing chun; similar to, but even beyond, imo:

weng chun...

the sister art that emphasizes standing arm locks, throws, sweeps, etc.

A great case for keeping chi sao as part of one's wing chun curriculum, actually - in addition to the more conventional reasons.

[YouKnowWho]

I personally like the over under because it works well to throw and off balance the opponent better (for me) than the double overhooks.

I agree that one arm overhook (for pulling) while another arm underhook (for lifting) is much better strategy than double overhook or double underhook. The nice thing about overhook and underhook is you can throw your opponent by either just single overhook or single underhook. It's the 1st thing that you learn when you train no-gi situation.

[anerlich]

The day when WC guys can integrate head lock, reverse head lock, overhook, underhook, bear hug, waist control. arm wrapping, ... into their Chi Sao training, they may bring their art into a new dimension.

A new dimension called pummelling.

Personally, I think when you get to the range where most of that stuff is worked it's not "chi sao" any more, it's "pummelling". But you can transition both ways between the two.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Transitioning back-and-forth between chi sao and pummeling.


Hummm...Good point.

[YungChun]

If your movement looks different when you spar/fight (actually apply your method against a genuinely resisting opponent that is trying to overcome you by direct physical force) than when you perform some drill or exercise, like chi sao, then you are drilling wrong, you are wasting your time, and you are developing bad habits.

I don't.. and it isn't.

In ChiSao there are a variety of ways to play...

One way to play is to play as you fight. That is the way I normally train.. When I was sparring (before I did WCK) I learned what you call free movement elements.. I simply view the ChiSao work as inside fight training with WCK, which as far as I can see was the point. As I said, once you get past the LukSao it's attack time. My attacks will be whatever is needed in any case when I encounter the opponent be it a drill nor not. I don't switch gears and go into fake movement mode or real movement mode, with some level of control excepted in sparring or ChiSao.

Does your fighting look exactly like your chi sao? Does your chi sao look exactly like your fighting?

One fight does not look like another..

If Joe who does martial art X.. Why he could just kill me instantly and you'd see none of my cool moves.. Or maybe the guy really sucks and I enter and beat him silly.. Then it would look another way. So what?

A good WCK man is a reflection of his opponent, he complements him and finds the weak link in his defense.

I think I already covered this above. so let me ask you:

If you don't think your ChiSao is like your fighting (inside contact WCK fighting) then why don't you simply do it--move--whatever you want--the same way ? Even if you want to add things in that are not from WCK..you could do that too.. (I'll bet you rely more on the non-WCK stuff as it is) Or you could just use WCK tools, couldn't you? Or is THAT what makes it "unrealistic" using only WCK tools?

In any case I always try to move as I would in fighting or sparring, I see no difference once you move past the initial rolling, which I grant you will not happen in fighting.. Otherwise you are correct there would be no point if you don't move the same way; have the same goals, etc.. So while ChiSao can be trained as you would fight it can also be broken down into parts, done more slowly, or with whatever focus you want.. This is the flexibility of the drill, which is very much alive, does not use dead patterns and each player is free to resist his little heart out...

Look at the following clip, and pay attention to contact fighting starting at 28 seconds in

Real fighting using WCK should look like "Fred" and "Bill" wrestling and clinching..?

Sorry but that just won't fly... Let one of those guys go study under a decent WCK teacher (we'll make him) and then let them go at it.. I can guarantee it won't look the same..


So since you can use the tools, tactics, techniques in ChiSao and clearly the tools are the tools, etc... And you have failed to show WCK techniques as different in application or even any WCK techniques in application: THIS CASE IS DISMISSED!

[LSWCTN1]

A new dimension called pummelling.

Personally, I think when you get to the range where most of that stuff is worked it's not "chi sao" any more, it's "pummelling". But you can transition both ways between the two.

i have it on good information that Chen village push hands is the same thing.

almost all train it as an esoteric exercise, however the 'correct' way is this 'pummeling' you talk about.

[Frost]

I agree that one arm overhook (for pulling) while another arm underhook (for lifting) is much better strategy than double overhook or double underhook. The nice thing about overhook and underhook is you can throw your opponent by either just single overhook or single underhook. It's the 1st thing that you learn when you train no-gi situation.

the problem being is that if you have an overhook and an underhook than so does your opponent, if you have double underhooks then you are on the attack and your opponent the defense and you have many more attacks to use than they do.

the main reason you drill the single over and underhook position in no gi is because its what happens alot in fights, it is not the ideal position by any means hence you are taught to try to swim for dounble if possible,