Progression without Chi Sao, is it possible?

[YungChun]

Those drills are mainly for conditioning, not developing skill (which is what I'm talking about). You learn to box by boxing, not by hitting the focus mitts.

I agree and ChiSao is more dynamic than are pads.

When you fight in contact/attached, it will not "look" like chi sao. Your opponent will not be doing what your chi sao partner does -- he's going to be doing all kinds of things but none of which your chi sao partner does.

This is false.. There are a limited number of ways to resist... You can train them... You can also add in more.. But despite this you dismiss it all out of hand, despite the fact that it contains many of the elements you point to, like resistance, no dead patterns.. You are simply dismissing the drill out of hand..

He will do what the guys in the clip I posted were doing.

So two guys doing/showing MMA clinch fighting is what a WCK fighter looks like fighting anyone?

Complete load.

Robert has very good chi sao. Both he and I would toss you around like a rag doll in chi sao.

Put your money where your mouth is..

I'd be happy to let you show me (Now Mr. ChiSao master).

I have heard who is how good....and I can see..

If you or he wanted to compare hands with the best folks I know I have no doubt you'd get thrown out a window along with your teacher..and anyone else you can dig up. Sadly it will never happen--nor will we ever see either of you doing anything.

[Frost]

I don't think there is anything wrong with adding in whatever you want to ChiSao (the platform).. However once you go into MMA type clinch work you have left the realm of what WCK is.. WCK is not a clinch art, in terms of what MMA clinching is.. Victor also made this clear when he speaks of "Not using WCK in the clinch" but rather using other methods and tools..

WCK does not trap its own hands in this manner.. That is not WCK, which is a different idea. Now if you can't maintain your range and use your WCK, find yourself in the clinch or on the ground then you WILL need these other options.. But let's be clear: They are OTHER options.

which is why its a false enviroment ...if you are a close in fighting system then you have to include some form off attached hitting (and this is what the clinch is attached hitting) if you are training hand contact drills of any kind and not following the natural logical progression into clinch fighting you are being false, people do not simply stand there and trade punches at close range, they grab, hit and throw thats just the nature of fighting.

and as for bringing boxing drills into the arguement its very silly really. hat drills are you talking about? Bag work skipping, pad work? you have to draw a distinction between conditioning drills and training drills. when you skip you are working conditioning and maybe footwork, when you work the bag you are using the same footwork hand work and body structure you use in a fight (can the same be said about chi sao).

When drilling on the pads you are working timing co-ordination awareness and footwork/angling, you are using the same movements you would in a fight: the same body structure same slips same bobing etc and if the caoach is good he will be firing back at you like a fighter would getting you to move cover and evade just l;ikeyou would in a fight (again can the same be said about sticking hands).

And when you spar you bring all those things into the equation the footwork and body position and timing learned from the pads, the power and combinations learned on the bag, and the conditioning from skipping running and bag work and guess what you look the same as you did drilling ...again does your sparring look like your chi sao if not why not and might there be a better way to train?

[Frost]

Sorry, I must disagree. The possibility of chi sao including more pummeling, clinch work and take downs seems like a natural progression. In addition removing the resetting back to the start after someone gains an advantage and going with a more continuous flow would be a possible modification also. These changes could be additions to, not replacements for, chi sao as it now stands.

Of course this all depends on how you view your wing chun.

Some view wing chun as an art only a lucky few got, which many practise wrong but are unwilling or can't say how it should be practised correctly beyond a few general posts...makes you wonder why they actually post on threads

[YungChun]

which is why its a false enviroment ...

If you think that close range must be all about the MMA clinch then you're on the same page with T and sorry I don't agree. Moreover, anyone who knows what WCK is can tell you the same thing--WCK uses a different method. Don't agree with it? Fine.

if you are a close in fighting system then you have to include some form off attached hitting (and this is what the clinch is attached hitting) if you are training hand contact drills of any kind and not following the natural logical progression into clinch fighting you are being false, people do not simply stand there and trade punches at close range, they grab, hit and throw thats just the nature of fighting.

A paragraph needs to be more than one enormous sentence.

WCK has the tools and techniques it has.. It does not attempt to cover every kind of attached clinch model.. WCK does not trap its own hands.. Anyone who suggests it does, does NOT understand what WCK is.

and as for bringing boxing drills into the arguement its very silly really. hat drills are you talking about? Bag work skipping, pad work? you have to draw a distinction between conditioning drills and training drills. when you skip you are working conditioning and maybe footwork, when you work the bag you are using the same footwork hand work and body structure you use in a fight (can the same be said about chi sao).

Not sure what this means... Please be specific..

We move in ChiSao exactly the same way we move in inside fighting.. If we didn't and did it one way in a drill and then another way in fighting then THAT wouldn't make much sense.. I am personally interested in training to move the way I want to move in fighting.. That's Basic Training 101.

[m1k3]

But as a WCK fighter what do you do when you find yourself in a clinch? Just because you don't want to clinch doesn't mean your opponent doesn't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What it seems to be coming down to is, can you fight effectively at close rage, without Chi Sao?
And the answer is YES.
Many other systems do.
BUT, that is only IF we see Chi sao as merely Chi sao ( the exercise) and no Chi Sao the principles and concepts.

[m1k3]

What it seems to be coming down to is, can you fight effectively at close rage, without Chi Sao?
And the answer is YES.
Many other systems do.
BUT, that is only IF we see Chi sao as merely Chi sao ( the exercise) and no Chi Sao the principles and concepts.

There you go being reasonable again. Are you looking for some sort of ban?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There you go being reasonable again. Are you looking for some sort of ban?

I'm a moderator, I can't be banned !!!!
BBBWWAAHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[YungChun]

But as a WCK fighter what do you do when you find yourself in a clinch? Just because you don't want to clinch doesn't mean your opponent doesn't.

Not sure if this was addressed to me?

If so, I answered it above and many times before..

[kungfublow]

So what do you do as wing chun player who finds themselves in this situation? You say that WCK is not a clinch art but to be effective in the US wouldn't it almost have to be? Look at the number of adult males who have played football and wrestled at a competitive level, now include the numbers of those who train BJJ, Judo and MMA. It would seem to me any martial art that fails to take this into account is leaving a large hole in its game.

I realize that WCK developed in a particular place and time as an effective style for that place and time but to not account for the spread of the art into other places with other ideas about fighting and to not evolve to handle the situation of dealing with what is to be found here and now makes the art more about preserving tradition and culture and less about fighting.
Even the military, as slow as it evolves, makes modifications and updates to its H2H programs to take into consideration the changes and updates in fight science.

Just my 2 cents.

Well with this logic then many other systems are in touble too. Karate, kickboxing and MT, most forms of Kung fu and the list could go on and on. I don't think that one art will have all the anwers to every situation. WC is a stand up fighting art. It has little to no ground work as far as I can tell. That doesn't mean the answers that it does have are no good. There isn't one art to rule them all ( a little lord of the rings for those nerds out there) I think if you want to be an effective fighter you need to cross train on some level. You want ground work go take BJJ. But then BJJ will not teach you how to stand up. You need to find those skills in another art. WC is not the military where if you don't know what to do in a situation you die. It's about learning a specific set of skills and then applying them to the bigger picture.

[YungChun]

So what do you do as wing chun player who finds themselves in this situation? You say that WCK is not a clinch art but to be effective in the US wouldn't it almost have to be? Look at the number of adult males who have played football and wrestled at a competitive level, now include the numbers of those who train BJJ, Judo and MMA. It would seem to me any martial art that fails to take this into account is leaving a large hole in its game.

I realize that WCK developed in a particular place and time as an effective style for that place and time but to not account for the spread of the art into other places with other ideas about fighting and to not evolve to handle the situation of dealing with what is to be found here and now makes the art more about preserving tradition and culture and less about fighting.
Even the military, as slow as it evolves, makes modifications and updates to its H2H programs to take into consideration the changes and updates in fight science.

Just my 2 cents.

Just saw this one quoting me..


I had addressed this in the very post you quoted...

Just as the new guy said... Everything under the sun is not to be found in WCK... That's the nature of an art--it HAS it own nature, not all the answers, that is up to YOU..

WCK has a very broad range of tools but it doesn't cover the whole fight picture.. That is up to the FIGHTER.

[YungChun]

What it seems to be coming down to is, can you fight effectively at close rage, without Chi Sao?
And the answer is YES.
Many other systems do.
BUT, that is only IF we see Chi sao as merely Chi sao ( the exercise) and no Chi Sao the principles and concepts.

The question seems to be if the things you train in ChiSao are used in fighting..

If the answer is yes then ChiSao is useful, if the answer is no then it's not.

I see it as very useful, however I also see it and other elements as potentially detrimental if the role of the drill, how it's done and applied, and overall fight picture is not covered correctly.

My POV was different from some others.. When I came in I didn't come in looking for a style, so much as any way I could find to make my sparring/fighting better... I found many useful ideas and elements. Then later I got more interested in the art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The question seems to be if the things you train in ChiSao are used in fighting..

If the answer is yes then ChiSao is useful, if the answer is no then it's not.

I see it as very useful, however I also see it and other elements as potentially detrimental if the role of the drill, how it's done and applied, and overall fight picture is not covered correctly.

My POV was different from some others.. When I came in I didn't come in looking for a style, so much as any way I could find to make my sparring/fighting better... I found many useful ideas and elements. Then later I got more interested in the art.

I went into WC from Kyokshin, from Boxing, from Judo.
I brought a set of skills that made me look at WC and Chi sao in a far from typical view of most training with me.
I used what I knew worked for me and discarded the rest.
Chi sao was no different, I used what I felt I needed and discared the rest.
May not be the ideal thing for a WC guy, but worked great for a Fighter.

[YungChun]

I went into WC from Kyokshin, from Boxing, from Judo.
I brought a set of skills that made me look at WC and Chi sao in a far from typical view of most training with me.
I used what I knew worked for me and discarded the rest.
Chi sao was no different, I used what I felt I needed and discared the rest.
May not be the ideal thing for a WC guy, but worked great for a Fighter.

Great background Paul.

Hey you use whatever you can and works for you.. Of all the ChiSao stuff I only used maybe 15%-25% in fighting--technique wise, not including overall attributes.. But my sense of the art was that those in the past who were good at it used but a handful of all the options available.

Others need to realize that WCK may not have all the answers.. Some students get very disappointed when they hear this. It's just reality.. In fact IMO most WCK has little or no answers because it's not trained correctly.. Even when you get better training the truth is the fighter has to do the work of finding out what he's missing and then getting that into his game.. There are a ton of combative skills that would take many life times to master.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great background Paul.

Hey you use whatever you can and works for you.. Of all the ChiSao stuff I only used maybe 15%-25% in fighting--technique wise, not including overall attributes.. But my sense of the art was that those in the past who were good at it used but a handful of all the options available.

Others need to realize that WCK may not have all the answers.. Some students get very disappointed when they hear this. It's just reality.. In fact IMO most WCK has little or no answers because it's not trained correctly.. Even when you get better training the truth is the fighter has to do the work of finding out what he's missing and then getting that into his game.. There are a ton of combative skills that would take many life times to master.

Agreed, 100%