Progression without Chi Sao, is it possible?

[Shaolinstudent]

Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)

[hulkout]

There are a lot of things you can practice in Wing Chun that don't involve Chi Sao. These are the things that a lot of people neglect because it isn't as exciting. Footwork including taking different angles and 180 degree turns (Mobility is extremely important), shifting drills going through pak sao, tan sao, bong sao, etc, punching and kicking power using heavy bags and wallbags, stepping and punching. And during all this, always be aware of your centerline and make sure you face the opponent's centerline. For my drills, I use a broomstick to represent my opponent's centerline and I always face it. Sensitivity training from Chi Sao is of course necessary to really understand trapping and simultaneous attack and defense. But perfecting your punches, kicks, and footwork is an art all unto itself. Remember that the goal of Wing Chun is NOT to trap. The goal is to attack the opponent's centerline. Trapping helps you do that by making sure you can get the shot in. But there are times when you can just go right in and you don't even need to trap.

[Tom Kagan]

Why do you ask?

[Vajramusti]

Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)

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Short answer- no---you are likely to end up with something other than wing chun. Depends on whether you want to learn wing chun. There are other non wing chun styles and methods.
Later, there are many ways to do footwork with chi sao and moving. You should search for a decent teacher.
Buddy Wu may still be teaching near Cleveland.


joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)

I'd say you could learn to use wing chun without the chi sao--but this is assuming of course that you're doing everything else in the wing chun curriculum like the partner drills, sparring, and the like; and if you're going to do that you might as well do the chi sao. To bottom line is that you need to work with PEOPLE to really excel in wing chun. To be honest the same is true of any style, but wing chun moreso because our style focuses on a range of fighting that requires high levels touch sensitivity to gain proficiency.

[anerlich]

IMO if you don't have chi sao, forms or points, dummy training and the weapons, you don't have Wing Chun.

Lots of people have learned to fight well enough without chi sao, but IMO they are then not practising Wing Chun.

[YungChun]

Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)

I assume you are asking because you want to try and train without exposure to someone who can do ChiSao?

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, you can train some WCK elements both with and without a partner..if you know what they are..

No, it will never impart the same benefits of good ChiSao work.

It's tough to find good instruction.. Look hard and try to find the right place...

What do you want to get out of the training?

[Shaolinstudent]

I assume you are asking because you want to try and train without exposure to someone who can do ChiSao?

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, you can train some WCK elements both with and without a partner..if you know what they are..

No, it will never impart the same benefits of good ChiSao work.

It's tough to find good instruction.. Look hard and try to find the right place...

What do you want to get out of the training?

What I am wanting out of my training is to know that if anything happens around me, I can defend myself and my friends, if need be! What else can you want out of training, besides being able to beat people up?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Being able to beat people up is important. In order to defend one's self and his loved ones, he has to be able to beat people up. Simple as that. And yes, you can learn good Wing Chun fighting without chi sao as such. Actually, In my opinion, chi sao is just another drill. It is designed only to allow you to learn the proper way to apply certain pary techniques. The chi sao is exactly what it implies. It is training the chi or proper alignment and energy of these same techinques. I was told early in my training not to let it take on a life of its own. It is not fighting and does not lead to the ability to fight. It is just another drill. In order for you to actually learn the proper applications of what you learn you really need a friend to work with. Both can learn together. However, unless you have an understanding of such things you really need to find someone that can teach you.

[YungChun]

Actually, In my opinion, chi sao is just another drill. It is designed only to allow you to learn the proper way to apply certain pary techniques.

ChiSao covers a whole hell of a lot more than 'parry techniques'. It covers applications of most of the core WCK methods, tools and tactics in an alive dynamic fluid framework against resistance.

Any stand alone technique drill is what we call SunSao, a part of the whole without continuity and flow, it is dead.. ChiSao (poon sao) while limited is alive training, of the core WCK elements and method. It is not the first drill, nor the last.

[RGVWingChun]

So some of what I'm seeing here is that Chi Sau is a "pre set drill" with certain drills and combos that are performed....if this is the case then sure it is possible to progress in external movements that look like wing chun....

I believe Chi sau shouldn't be pre-determined in any way because a fight isn't...chi sau is the heart of wing chun training according to Great Grandmaster Ip Man...most of his emphasis in teaching came through chi sau training since there were other things that could be practiced solo like the forms. Personally I think that Chi sau is the bridge that connects the concepts contained in the forms to fighting. It is through chi sau that we understand elbow energy in a dynamic situation that is a self-defense situation, learning to flow and control our selves and an opponent.

In that respects I don't believe that Wing Chun can be properly learned or past down without Chi Sau. Those that don't practice chi sau I think are missing a vital aspect of training that has been one of the unique and defining aspects of Wing chun training.

My humble opinion,

Moses

[Tom Kagan]

What I am wanting out of my training is to know that if anything happens around me, I can defend myself and my friends, if need be!

Don't you find it a tad exhausting to worry about whether you can be a superhero?

[t_niehoff]

Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on.

WCK's method is attached fighting, to control the opponent while striking him, and chi sao (and the other WCK drills/exercises) permit us to learn some of the skills, movements, actions, elements, tactics, etc. associated with attached fighting. In other words, it is a way to learn a skill set.

The problem with chi sao is that it is "with the training wheels on" -- and doesn't reflect what attached fighting will really be like, so that you can't develop those attached fighting aspects to any significant degree.

Can you learn these aspects without chi sao? Sure. You could learn them directly in a sparring platform. Just like you could learn to ride a bicycle without resorting to training wheels.

The problem with chi sao is the problem will all unrealistic drills/exercises: by its very nature, you are practicing doing things wrong.

[Vajramusti]

Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
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True IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[Shaolinstudent]

Don't you find it a tad exhausting to worry about whether you can be a superhero?

Superhero! Not even close, most of my friends are very adept fighters, but some have not had a real fight in a long time and some never been in a fight there whole life. So yes, it could be me helping out the little guy but the little guy is my friend in thiis case. I would have a watching a friend fight someone twice their size who looks like they will eat tem afterwards. So if that makes me a "Superhero". Then I am.