Progression without Chi Sao, is it possible?

[YungChun]

Actually, In my opinion, chi sao is just another drill. It is designed only to allow you to learn the proper way to apply certain pary techniques.

ChiSao covers a whole hell of a lot more than 'parry techniques'. It covers applications of most of the core WCK methods, tools and tactics in an alive dynamic fluid framework against resistance.

Any stand alone technique drill is what we call SunSao, a part of the whole without continuity and flow, it is dead.. ChiSao (poon sao) while limited is alive training, of the core WCK elements and method. It is not the first drill, nor the last.

[RGVWingChun]

So some of what I'm seeing here is that Chi Sau is a "pre set drill" with certain drills and combos that are performed....if this is the case then sure it is possible to progress in external movements that look like wing chun....

I believe Chi sau shouldn't be pre-determined in any way because a fight isn't...chi sau is the heart of wing chun training according to Great Grandmaster Ip Man...most of his emphasis in teaching came through chi sau training since there were other things that could be practiced solo like the forms. Personally I think that Chi sau is the bridge that connects the concepts contained in the forms to fighting. It is through chi sau that we understand elbow energy in a dynamic situation that is a self-defense situation, learning to flow and control our selves and an opponent.

In that respects I don't believe that Wing Chun can be properly learned or past down without Chi Sau. Those that don't practice chi sau I think are missing a vital aspect of training that has been one of the unique and defining aspects of Wing chun training.

My humble opinion,

Moses

[sanjuro_ronin]

For those that use chi sao as an indespensible tool,it isn't possible to progress in WC without it.
For those that DON'T use it that way, or at all, yes, it is possible to progress in WC without it.

[RGVWingChun]

So then the real issue seems to be is Chi Sau necessarily part of the cirriculum of wing chun? Can wing chun theories like "stick to what comes, follow what leaves, when hands are free strike directly" be practiced without chi sau? do they make sense apart from chi sau? Will those lineages that practice chi sau be better or worse than the ones that don't would be another interesting issue? Is one going to be a "bare bones" wing chun and the other more complete?

These seems to be the issues that will need to be dealt with if you have "chi sau'less" wing chun....

thinking out loud,

Moses

[Lee Chiang Po]

Any two man drill can be considered as chi sao. And I have noticed that some people go way to far with it. It becomes Wing Chun to them. Crossing arms with me will get you hit, no matter how much chi sao you do. Because I don't chi sao fair. I have done my share of chi sao, but I was warned very early on that it is a drill and not to let it take on a greater roll. Just rolling and rolling and then jumping with a surprise attack is not real chi sao either. In most cases it is taken advantage of by the person teaching. Rolling and rolling sets a pattern that anyone can use to breach a defense. If one wants to train take and give he can do it with a lot of different drills, but it is difficult to do without a partner that is willing to work with you.

[Matrix]

For those that use chi sao as an indespensible tool,it isn't possible to progress in WC without it.
For those that DON'T use it that way, or at all, yes, it is possible to progress in WC without it.

I think in each case, that what is seen as "progress" would be quite different. Can you progress without chi sao? For me, chi sao is a MUST have, but that's just my personal point of view.

In that respects I don't believe that Wing Chun can be properly learned or past down without Chi Sau. Those that don't practice chi sau I think are missing a vital aspect of training that has been one of the unique and defining aspects of Wing chun training.

I don't believe I could have said it much better myself. Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.

[Tom Kagan]

What I am wanting out of my training is to know that if anything happens around me, I can defend myself and my friends, if need be!

Don't you find it a tad exhausting to worry about whether you can be a superhero?

[t_niehoff]

Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on.

WCK's method is attached fighting, to control the opponent while striking him, and chi sao (and the other WCK drills/exercises) permit us to learn some of the skills, movements, actions, elements, tactics, etc. associated with attached fighting. In other words, it is a way to learn a skill set.

The problem with chi sao is that it is "with the training wheels on" -- and doesn't reflect what attached fighting will really be like, so that you can't develop those attached fighting aspects to any significant degree.

Can you learn these aspects without chi sao? Sure. You could learn them directly in a sparring platform. Just like you could learn to ride a bicycle without resorting to training wheels.

The problem with chi sao is the problem will all unrealistic drills/exercises: by its very nature, you are practicing doing things wrong.

[Vajramusti]

Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
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True IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think in each case, that what is seen as "progress" would be quite different. Can you progress without chi sao? For me, chi sao is a MUST have, but that's just my personal point of view.

That's just it, if YOU see chi sao is indispensable then it truly is.
Training that revolves around chi sao MUST make chi sao effective or the system can't be.
It is when chi sao "breaks down" that a system the is based around it, falls apart too.

[anerlich]

Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
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True IMO.

joy chaudhuri

I concur with Joy.

[dirtyrat]

I studied a couple different systems of kung fu before having learned some wing chun from a friend. None of the fighting methods he showed me IMO required chi sao. I always thought you could do without.

Having said that, I do believed it would make for a valuable tool for refinement when the student reached more advanced levels.

[Matrix]

That's just it, if YOU see chi sao is indispensable then it truly is.

That's what I'm saying. I don't pretend to have a lock on the truth. I think the original post is asking for an opinion. I am simply stating mine.

Training that revolves around chi sao MUST make chi sao effective or the system can't be.

Of course. Replace "chi sao" with any other training method you have in mind and I would say this must be the case. Any training method that is integral to the system MUST be effective or the sytem can't be. It's circular logic.

It is when chi sao "breaks down" that a system the is based around it, falls apart too.

Same here too. I just want to add that the problem starts when chi sao is seen as a means and end unto itself. In other words, the exercise becomes the end game. The end game is skill development, not to become good at chi sao. I think it's a critical and subtle distinction. But then again, it's only an opinion.

[YungChun]

The end game is skill development, not to become good at chi sao. I think it's a critical and subtle distinction. But then again, it's only an opinion.

Very true.. This is seen where folks will "find things" or "methods" that allow them to "win" in ChiSao, but actually has little or no connection to the skills we are trying to build in ChiSao.. They often will not see the difference between the two and go on their merry way "winning" in ChiSao. As a result they begin to remove any useful training elements and instead take advantage of the limits within an artificial construct--a drill.

The problem isn't ChiSao it's how ChiSao is used.

Choppy chop chop anyone?

[tigershorty]

not that bruce lee was like king of wing chun or anything ..but didn't he tell WSL that "chi sao is out"?