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Thread: 3 Seeds of wing chun

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    3 Seeds of wing chun

    We know that there are three families of wing chun; the tan, bong, and fook. In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively. Knowing this, techniques can be classified into one of these families; e.g. gaan sao being part of the bong family or jut sao part of the fook family. These are also known as the three seeds of wing chun.

    To expand on this, when I think of "seeds" I think of a starting point by which something grows from. That said, there are a lot of things that can be learnt from a single movement, even though it may not be explicitely expressed as such. I thought that this would be a good format by which to expand on the various indirect things that we've all learned in our studies of wing chun.

    Some simple examples from CK and BJ:

    The 3 bong sao movements done with steps, can be interpreted as an overhand punch when moving in. Same motion, but with the hand in the form of a fist. Basically a pak - da using the bong sao's motion.

    A step forward doubles as a wang gurk as you drive the leg into the knee and down the shin of the opponent while moving in.

    The double bong can be used as a defense against a bear hug from behind, using the sweeping legs of biu jee combined with the waist turning can use fak sao or wang jeung to the upper body to take down the opponent (you can use a soo gurk sweep at the same time for good measure).

    Less explicit example:

    When you lap sao say with the right hand, you can use the sweeping step from BJ with the right leg to make yourself sideward while at the same time using a forceful waist turn clockwise (to coordinate the lap, step, and turn) into a quick arm break using the body as the fulcrum on his elbow.

    ....


    Anyone have any other not so obvious applications using wing chun "seeds"?
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  2. #2
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    A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

    WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.

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    I think that WC people are anally retentive.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    Three seeds!?!~$%!?

    I actually got excited when I saw this thread before I read it and realized that it was talking of something else!

    Shame. As it was going well...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  5. #5
    Perhaps you should contribute to it then based on what you thought it was going to be about?

    Shame that no one here wants to share as opposed to argue about what is "right".
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  6. #6
    There are 8 hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手

    攤 - tan sao
    膀 - bong sao
    伏 - fook sao
    圈 - hun sao

    耕 - gang sao
    刮 - gua sao
    捆 - koon sao
    標 - biu sao (biu jee)
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think that WC people are anally retentive.
    More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it.
    Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !
    Maybe coz they only have four basic punches to use, and no other interpretation for an open handed player
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

    WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.
    Hmm....

    I think a bit differently then. I think that the wing chun sets do indeed show you techniques (aren't the chung choi, gaan sao, bong sao, also techniques as well?)

    Thinking back, through the form sets I have learned the basics of the system with SLT. I learned the most fundamental of the techniques, how to apply soft power, how to be aware of my mental center as well as my physical one.

    Chum kiu taught me the basics of WC movement, provided another concept of power generation, and introduced other techniques as well like lan sao, the jing and wang gurk, etc.

    BJ in short--showed me ways to regain my center when things don't go as planned. It also further developed whipping power and introduced even more techniques like the sweeping leg steps and the grabbing and hook punch.

    So while I agree that you're not going to take a 5-string set of moves from the forms and apply them as such in real life, to say that there are not techniques is also incorrect. If you notice the examples I gave, the first group were basically single techniques...using somthing from the sets. The second one, was using techniques, movements, power generation from any one of the three sets to show application of something learnt.

    Could there be other ways to use the movements in the forms? Absolutely!! That's why I created the thread. The examples I gave, I've actually used in fighting.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    We know that there are three families of wing chun; the tan, bong, and fook.
    No. There are no "familes" of WCK techniques.

    In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively.
    No.

    Anyone have any other not so obvious applications using wing chun "seeds"?
    Tan, bong, fook comprise the "starting" point of the YKS and YM chi sao training platform (the signature drill/exercise of WCK), hence the reference to "seeds".

    Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.

  12. #12
    so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block

    Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.

    then try to use it to block a punch and pivot inside the guys arms...its your nose..

    Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds.... your a 'follower'

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block
    There are no lines except in your imagination (do you see any lines?).

    Tan (spreading) sao isn't a "block" or deflection or parry -- it is a bridge hand. Bridge hands manipulate the (opponent's) bridge to our advantage.

    Too many people believe their ears (when "someone explains the system to you") and not their eyes.

    Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.
    Again, there is no line except in your imagination.

    A simple ilustration -- have your partner put his right palm on your chest and press. Take your left arm and put it inside/underneath his arm making contact with his wrist and with your thumb facing your chest and your fingers pointed up (which necessitates your elbow being down). Now while keeping your elbow down, rotate your palm upward while moving your hand slightly toward your opponent. Viola! You've just performed a tan sao -- you've used a bridge hand to spread the opponent's bridge to your advantage.

    Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds.... your a 'follower'
    Any "follower" has a closed mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Tan (spreading) sao isn't a "block" or deflection or parry -- it is a bridge hand. Bridge hands manipulate the (opponent's) bridge to our advantage.

    A simple ilustration -- have your partner put his right palm on your chest and press. Take your left arm and put it inside/underneath his arm making contact with his wrist and with your thumb facing your chest and your fingers pointed up (which necessitates your elbow being down). Now while keeping your elbow down, rotate your palm upward while moving your hand slightly toward your opponent. Viola! You've just performed a tan sao -- you've used a bridge hand to spread the opponent's bridge to your advantage.
    Nice one T!

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds.... your a 'follower'
    Takes one to know one I suppose!

    Although I wouldn't class myself a follower these days.

    I was a student who 'served' his master, I couldn't disagree with that and in fact I'm very proud of what I accomplished with him too, but now I'm out there (with a brother) researching and coaching as best we can to a very select audience.

    I think a mirror is required for that 'closed mind' comment dude, as you seem to be far more closed than I could ever be...
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 03-26-2010 at 08:38 AM.
    Ti Fei
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