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Thread: 3 Seeds of wing chun

  1. #1

    3 Seeds of wing chun

    We know that there are three families of wing chun; the tan, bong, and fook. In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively. Knowing this, techniques can be classified into one of these families; e.g. gaan sao being part of the bong family or jut sao part of the fook family. These are also known as the three seeds of wing chun.

    To expand on this, when I think of "seeds" I think of a starting point by which something grows from. That said, there are a lot of things that can be learnt from a single movement, even though it may not be explicitely expressed as such. I thought that this would be a good format by which to expand on the various indirect things that we've all learned in our studies of wing chun.

    Some simple examples from CK and BJ:

    The 3 bong sao movements done with steps, can be interpreted as an overhand punch when moving in. Same motion, but with the hand in the form of a fist. Basically a pak - da using the bong sao's motion.

    A step forward doubles as a wang gurk as you drive the leg into the knee and down the shin of the opponent while moving in.

    The double bong can be used as a defense against a bear hug from behind, using the sweeping legs of biu jee combined with the waist turning can use fak sao or wang jeung to the upper body to take down the opponent (you can use a soo gurk sweep at the same time for good measure).

    Less explicit example:

    When you lap sao say with the right hand, you can use the sweeping step from BJ with the right leg to make yourself sideward while at the same time using a forceful waist turn clockwise (to coordinate the lap, step, and turn) into a quick arm break using the body as the fulcrum on his elbow.

    ....


    Anyone have any other not so obvious applications using wing chun "seeds"?
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  2. #2
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    A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

    WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.

  3. #3
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    I think that WC people are anally retentive.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

    WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.
    Hmm....

    I think a bit differently then. I think that the wing chun sets do indeed show you techniques (aren't the chung choi, gaan sao, bong sao, also techniques as well?)

    Thinking back, through the form sets I have learned the basics of the system with SLT. I learned the most fundamental of the techniques, how to apply soft power, how to be aware of my mental center as well as my physical one.

    Chum kiu taught me the basics of WC movement, provided another concept of power generation, and introduced other techniques as well like lan sao, the jing and wang gurk, etc.

    BJ in short--showed me ways to regain my center when things don't go as planned. It also further developed whipping power and introduced even more techniques like the sweeping leg steps and the grabbing and hook punch.

    So while I agree that you're not going to take a 5-string set of moves from the forms and apply them as such in real life, to say that there are not techniques is also incorrect. If you notice the examples I gave, the first group were basically single techniques...using somthing from the sets. The second one, was using techniques, movements, power generation from any one of the three sets to show application of something learnt.

    Could there be other ways to use the movements in the forms? Absolutely!! That's why I created the thread. The examples I gave, I've actually used in fighting.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  5. #5
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    Three seeds!?!~$%!?

    I actually got excited when I saw this thread before I read it and realized that it was talking of something else!

    Shame. As it was going well...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  6. #6
    Perhaps you should contribute to it then based on what you thought it was going to be about?

    Shame that no one here wants to share as opposed to argue about what is "right".
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  7. #7
    There are 8 hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手

    攤 - tan sao
    膀 - bong sao
    伏 - fook sao
    圈 - hun sao

    耕 - gang sao
    刮 - gua sao
    捆 - koon sao
    標 - biu sao (biu jee)
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  8. #8
    theres no mention of the most important idea...elbow. why does SLT have elbows in ?

    or jum sao... jum is the yin of tans yang......

    btw bong saos arent overhand strikes.....there arent 3 bongs , just one..

    applications will be your downfall....your missing the heavenly glory.

    oh well why bother....

    8 hands ? no jum sao....gone , missing, not there anymore...where is it ?
    Last edited by k gledhill; 03-22-2010 at 06:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    theres no mention of the most important idea...elbow. why does SLT have elbows in ?

    or jum sao... jum is the yin of tans yang......

    btw bong saos arent overhand strikes.....there arent 3 bongs , just one..

    applications will be your downfall....your missing the heavenly glory.

    oh well why bother....
    Because the three seeds are tan, bong, and fook. Though I understand where you're coming from.

    When I say 3 bongs...I'm talking about the bong sao's that are repeated 3 times in CK.

    You're right in that bong sao's aren't strikes, they're bong sao's. I simply used the same movement to come up with a solution to the need on the fly, there it was. That's why I said it wasn't a direct application.


    But I think that so far ALL of you are missing the point of the post. Completely. What I'm trying to make conversation about are the things that you've done in sparring or fighting that can be traced back to one of the three basic seeds, and/or something out of the forms. It's not application exactly from the form, it's application using skills derived from the form or technique.

    Is it really that difficult to make light conversation about this aspect of it?
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think that WC people are anally retentive.
    More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by -木叶- View Post
    There are 8 hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手

    攤 - tan sao
    膀 - bong sao
    伏 - fook sao
    圈 - hun sao

    耕 - gang sao
    刮 - gua sao
    捆 - koon sao
    標 - biu sao (biu jee)
    Seriously, there are more than eight 'hands'. As others have mentioned, you have a few missing here for starters...

    Quote Originally Posted by vankuen View Post
    Perhaps you should contribute to it then based on what you thought it was going to be about?

    Shame that no one here wants to share as opposed to argue about what is "right".
    I actually couldn't care less if people want to argue right and wrongs! I'm only interested in good, honest research and exchange.

    Regarding what I mean by using the term 'three seeds', you do explain quite well what I have mentioned many times on other threads. As you put it, Bong, Fook and Tan are evident in 'everything we do' and should not be limited to the 'one way' option I tend to see and read about.

    IMO What is a correct bong sau?

    One that works!

    However, you tend to get carried away with trying to highlight this simple fact by using examples from the forms. By telling me you have a fist on your CK bong sau set gives me a very big clue. Now all we need to do is convince others that the same 'idea' originates within the SLT 'Fist' set! And if anyone reading has not tried this out I would heavily recommend it.

    Honestly, I don't think there will be many people that understand what you're trying to say. Many are just too 'fixed' in their own way unfortunately.

    This subject matter also begs the question about order of the seed. As you mention, you refer to Bong, Fook, Tan but do you actually practise in that sequence? They are also referred to sometimes as the 'three treasures' of Wing Chun, but as with all treasures you need a map to decode the info!

    I feel that you may prefer the flow of Bong, Tan, Fook...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it.
    Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !
    Maybe coz they only have four basic punches to use, and no other interpretation for an open handed player
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Maybe coz they only have four basic punches to use, and no other interpretation for an open handed player
    Simple, direct, effective.
    Hmmm, sounds strangely familiar....
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #15

    Vankuen asks:

    Is it really that difficult to make light conversation about this aspect of it?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On this forum? Yes!!

    joy chaudhuri

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