3 Seeds of wing chun

[duende]

Tan (spreading) sao isn't a "block" or deflection or parry -- it is a bridge hand. Bridge hands manipulate the (opponent's) bridge to our advantage.

A simple ilustration -- have your partner put his right palm on your chest and press. Take your left arm and put it inside/underneath his arm making contact with his wrist and with your thumb facing your chest and your fingers pointed up (which necessitates your elbow being down). Now while keeping your elbow down, rotate your palm upward while moving your hand slightly toward your opponent. Viola! You've just performed a tan sao -- you've used a bridge hand to spread the opponent's bridge to your advantage.

Nice one T!

[LoneTiger108]

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.

Okay, good interpretation. Tan related to the action of spreading.

Now what about fook, or bong?

[duende]

Maybe this thread should be renamed "the three seeds of chi sau".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its all about the centerline !

[duende]

Its all about the centerline !

Yeah... try controlling that centerline!

[k gledhill]

I leave the asylum to the inmates... have fun guys

[Matrix]

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.

Exactly. Well said.

Okay, good interpretation. Tan related to the action of spreading.

I don't see it as an interpretation but rather an explanation. I think the distinction is important.

[LoneTiger108]

I don't see it as an interpretation but rather an explanation. I think the distinction is important.

Okay, if this is so (and I agree with the word 'spreading' to a point but prefer another term) please explain the meanings of fook and bong...

FWIW I too do not believe these terms are only related to chisau practise, they are (or should be) embedded in your understanding of Wing Chun basics. And I really thought that everybody had the same/similar viewpoint, but how wrong could I be?

[Pacman]

I have to agre with gledhil. Many people leave the center while doing these things.

leaving the center is why peoples chi sao is ineffective and why their chi sao only works in the context of a cooperative partner. As a result chi sao gets a bad rap and so does wing chun

so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block

Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.

then try to use it to block a punch and pivot inside the guys arms...its your nose..

Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds.... your a 'follower'

[Matrix]

FWIW I too do not believe these terms are only related to chisau practise, they are (or should be) embedded in your understanding of Wing Chun basics. And I really thought that everybody had the same/similar viewpoint, but how wrong could I be?

Spencer.
You're kidding right? People don't seem to agree about too much around here.
Even the term chi sao has more flavours than Baskin Robins ( that's an American ice cream store chain). Chi sao is not limited by terms, nor is Wing Chun for that matter. Let's not get hung up on that. Or the romanization of Wing Chun, or Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun or whatever.

Okay, if this is so (and I agree with the word 'spreading' to a point but prefer another term) please explain the meanings of fook and bong...

When you say "interpretation" there is an implied level of abstraction, beyond the fact that most words are a level of abstraction already. It's a bit wishy-washy for me. Like you're intrepreting some abstract painting on the wall of a museum. Sorry if I'm off on a tangent here, but I think the distinction is important. Maybe I'm wrong. It may only be an issue for me, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

My point here is that you need to understand how the action is used. Your intent must be a deliberate understanding, not some vague interpretation, of what the application is. It's a sense of knowing that is ingrained at a deeper level. I also think that your understanding evolves over time as your skill level increases. It becomes more innate, and actually affects other aspects of your life.

I don't really don't care if we share the exact same understanding or not; I'm not sure that it can be exactly the same. What is important is that you understand clearly what you are doing with the action. You feel it at a deep level. So, I would call a fook sau, a covering or controlling hand. You may understand it differently. I'm not sure, but I'm not concerned about interpreting. Because then we get into, how do you interpret "covering" or "controlling". In a forum like this, we have a limited ability to fully communicate our ideas, because we are missing the key factors that would be there in a face to face situation.

This is only my POV.

Cheers,
Bill

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer.
You're kidding right? People don't seem to agree about too much around here.
Even the term chi sao has more flavours than Baskin Robins ( that's an American ice cream store chain). Chi sao is not limited by terms, nor is Wing Chun for that matter. Let's not get hung up on that. Or the romanization of Wing Chun, or Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun or whatever.

Yep! I am one of the few who do believe the family exists Bill! Especially in the UK, we all 'seem' to get on! I'm within the Lee Shing root and can honestly understand what you mean by 'flavours' as we ourselves have different types of tuition originating from one founder. Every one of Lee Shings original students picked up something different from the other, even their chisau practises vary.

FWIW from the way I have been taught, terms and language are a vital key to understanding how to teach Wing Chun as it was taught (in my lineage!), so if you can't understand or appreciate that that is where I am coming from, like I do about your situation, we already have an issue.

My point here is that you need to understand how the action is used. Your intent must be a deliberate understanding, not some vague interpretation, of what the application is. It's a sense of knowing that is ingrained at a deeper level. I also think that your understanding evolves over time as your skill level increases. It becomes more innate, and actually affects other aspects of your life.

I agree 100% here.

I don't really don't care if we share the exact same understanding or not; I'm not sure that it can be exactly the same. What is important is that you understand clearly what you are doing with the action. You feel it at a deep level. So, I would call a fook sau, a covering or controlling hand. You may understand it differently. I'm not sure, but I'm not concerned about interpreting. Because then we get into, how do you interpret "covering" or "controlling". In a forum like this, we have a limited ability to fully communicate our ideas, because we are missing the key factors that would be there in a face to face situation.

I use the word interpretation loosely, and I'm normally referring to the language when I do so, not the training or action. You're right though, getting into a ruck over the simplest of terms is just pointless. Physical interaction is the key. End of.

FWIW If we had the same teacher, same experience and same curriculums then I would be VERY dissappointed if we DIDN'T have the same understanding. As we didn't I can completely see and understand your POV and I hope you can see mine...