3 Seeds of wing chun

[ittokaos]

Aren't the three seeds just your way of explaining the three ways wing chun fights?

Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.

It's more like those techniques are just a physical example of the principles.

[SAAMAG]

By telling me you have a fist on your CK bong sau set gives me a very big clue.

You misunderstand or I wrote it in an unclear way. My bong sao doesn't "have a fist".

What I was saying is that I've used the same movement/motion/body function of the "wu/bong" from chum kiu (where after the lan sao and kick it is repeated 3 times in row with advancing steps) while intercepting a punch. The difference being that the bong ended up being a punch and the wu ended up using a pak motion.

The long and short of it is, the motions you learn the in the forms, the things attributes that you gain from the movements and motions, have more than the explicitely obvious applications to them. There is no limit as to what a single movement or technique can do for you.

Even within the same movement...it can be done with a yin or a yang intent (i.e. a more passive or assertive way).

When I metion the 3 seeds, I'm briefly discussed what the term actually is meant to describe, and in thinking about the aspect of seeds, elaborated a bit more and looked at specific instances of application from the seeds. That's all. Nothing more to it.

[SAAMAG]

Aren't the three seeds just your way of explaining the three ways wing chun fights?

Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.

It's more like those techniques are just a physical example of the principles.

Pretty much. The three seeds I look at as just that...the source(s) by which everything else comes. In some form or fashion all that we do in wing chun sao fot can be traced back to those ideas.

Looking at applications done in fighting and looking backwards to the forms or drills or training or what have you provides some indication of which parts of your training are working.

[JPinAZ]

What's amazing to me, is all the talk of technique this, technique that here lately... I thought this was a WCK forum..

But, just talking technique..

Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.

I disagree if you mean tan=push, fook=pull, bong=deflect.

Tan does not necessarily push (but it does have fwd intent)
Fook does not equal pull (how can it when it has fwd intent thru the elbow)
and Bong does not always equal deflect.

Tan can also equal disperse (or spread), or simply to occupy the heaven gate.
Fook can be a cover or redirect. Both accomplished using fwd energy from the elbow.
Bong can be a deflect, but also can be used to penetrate. It can be both offensive and defensive.
And, there are 2 different types of bong. Ying bong and hok bong (eagle and crane).
But really, the answers for what tool does what really depends on the appropriate concept you are expressing and the principal you are operating under.

As far as seeds, I would also disagree that these are the '3 seeds' of WCK. Maybe the 3 seeds/techniques for Duei Ying Chi Sau, but not all WCK. That's putting yourself into too small of a box.

[ittokaos]

What's amazing to me, is all the talk of technique this, technique that here lately... I thought this was a WCK forum..

But, just talking technique..



I disagree if you mean tan=push, fook=pull, bong=deflect.

Tan does not necessarily push (but it does have fwd intent)
Fook does not equal pull (how can it when it has fwd intent thru the elbow)
and Bong does not always equal deflect.

Tan can also equal disperse (or spread), or simply to occupy the heaven gate.
Fook can be a cover or redirect. Both accomplished using fwd energy from the elbow.
Bong can be a deflect, but also can be used to penetrate. It can be both offensive and defensive.
And, there are 2 different types of bong. Ying bong and hok bong (eagle and crane).
But really, the answers for what tool does what really depends on the appropriate concept you are expressing and the principal you are operating under.

As far as seeds, I would also disagree that these are the '3 seeds' of WCK. Maybe the 3 seeds/techniques for Duei Ying Chi Sau, but not all WCK. That's putting yourself into too small of a box.

I agree with what you have to say but i was just putting it down for clearification purposes as a way to understand what Vankuen was talking about. All techniques can be used differently than the way that we were originally taught.

[SAAMAG]

And to clarify as well, I wasn't talking about all of wing chun with the seeds, as obviously there are many aspects of wc that do not use them, like the kicks and footwork

[k gledhill]

Arggggghhhh !

[duende]

Arggggghhhh !

Haha...

[k gledhill]

The inmates are running the asylum...

[Paul T England]

I got excited with this thread as well.

The 3 seeds of wing chun are a bit like the holy grail...mentioned but never explained fully.

the push, pull redirect does not fit for me...

how about elbow (Bong) , wrist (Tan) and positional control (Fook)...

Techniques can be made from any movement but the intention while performing the mtions is more important

Paul

[LoneTiger108]

I got excited with this thread as well.

The 3 seeds of wing chun are a bit like the holy grail...mentioned but never explained fully.

the push, pull redirect does not fit for me...

how about elbow (Bong) , wrist (Tan) and positional control (Fook)...

Techniques can be made from any movement but the intention while performing the mtions is more important

Paul

This is also what I was 'attempting' to explain Paul!

FWIW I think most people would have had the terms explained at their beginnings, so I can understand why the connection to push, pull, deflect would fit 'at that time'. But as you grow, so should your understanding of this simple concept.

And to clarify as well, I wasn't talking about all of wing chun with the seeds, as obviously there are many aspects of wc that do not use them, like the kicks and footwork

Not in our legwork? That's also questionable imo. The seeds are named so (like a 'nickname') because they 'label' certain alignments of three joints, namely the shoulder, elbow and wrist.

This IS mirrored in the leg with hip, knee, ankle but we tend to use the technical terms like chai gerk, soh gerk, toi gerk etc

The three seeds are 'the rabbit hole' of Wing Chun. The Red pill if you like! And there was once something said about them being the soul of Wing Chun (from my Sifu anyway!) and I understand that now as they're forever present in everything we do.

Unfortunately, the longer you train 'without' the soul the harder it is to change your habit!

[k gledhill]

tan wrist ? tsk tsk.

push , pull , redirect....sounds like 'chi-sao heads' ...trying... to explain vt .

try sparring more with VT ...try motion , striking force, tactics.....

SLT, CK, BG.... the 3 seeds of VT, from these we 'may with the right ideas', grow a mighty tree...not a weedy little shrub of tan bong fok..besides you left out jum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF there are 3 seeds in WC they are:
Evade, control and Destroy.

Kids...*shakes head*.

[CFT]

Simple, direct and efficient would be a good mantra.

[CFT]

SLT, CK, BG.... the 3 seeds of VT, from these we 'may with the right ideas', grow a mighty tree...not a weedy little shrub of tan bong fok..besides you left out jum.

Haha, thought you'd be in there with the jum.

If you think tan/bong/fook is weedy. How about the research conducted by Ip Chun which unearthed the figure of Cheung Ng aka "Tan sau Ng", whose ONE tan sau was peerless throughout the martial realm?