WC VS MMA, Street fighting & boxing

[Ultimatewingchun]

ok, beyond posting "fail" how about showing something better? even going to the effort of yourself having to knock out a wc guy with a hook would be good! at least it proves your point.

i have to say kudos to Victor for posting and, right there, he separates himself from the majority of wing chun guys who only talk about how to deal with hooks...

i watched both videos and i have a few questions/comments

1) it seems like the black dude isn't really throwing it with full force nor follow through

2) it seems that the WC guy is anticipating the moves right from the get-go..he even steps to the left, perhaps because he knows which hook is coming? what if he didn't? would he still step to the left?

3) we don't know how hard the WC guy is hitting the shoulders, so it's hard to say it it'll really stop it or perhaps it really is stopping the hook.

4) based on simply these clips, i personally do not think it would be enough to stop a full speed hook, with weight behind it, especially coming from a guy of that size (but again, see point 3 above).

as a WC (WT) guy myself, hooks are not easy to handle..in fact ridiculously difficult and incredibly dangerous. You got one chance, and either you get it or lights out. If there's a "1-2", it's already too late...you're eating a fist, no doubt. And that's only at the "drill -level"...if you take it out of that context and put it into a fighting scenario, it's a 1000x more dangerous..lots of speed, weight, commitment and adrenaline. I would not go after the shoulder, if i had the choice that is...

Victor - it would be awesome if you could post a video one day to clear this up..

***GOOD post, grasshopper..

And you raise some good points and valid questions. As for knowing what was coming, yes, the vid was made with me knowing in advance that a hook was coming from his lead hand.

But in TWC one is taught to watch the opponent's elbows and knees like a hawk, with particular attention paid to the lead elbow - since his lead arm is his closest weapon.

We watch elbows because they travel slower than the fist- since they travel about half the distance as the fist but in the same amount of time. So they are much easier to see - and with enough drills and sparring....one can develop the ability to see what's coming in time to deal with it effectively.

Is it straight? Is it round? Is it high? Is it low? etc...

The same principle applies to watching knees against possible kicks coming in at you.

No, the black dude was not throwing full force for the purposes of the video - as I wanted my students to see clearly exactly what I was doing in response.

Stepping to the left is indicative of the fact that in TWC, if we start in a parallel position vis-a-vis with the opponent (ie.- matched leads)...we want to step outside his lead lead leg - as this gets us just slightly further away from his rear hand - in case he follows up with a punch with that arm - and therefore slightly more time for us to react.

As for how hard I was hitting the shoulders - I was purposely not hitting hard. If you blast a return punch to the shoulder joint you can definitely momentarily stop someone in their tracks - although granted it's not always going to work out that way, depending upon the opponent.

And sometimes that kind of move I demoed can't be used at all - based upon the timing and distance. Sometimes a more conventional block (with no return fire) is all you can do...or a duck, a slip, or whatever.

Would like to make more videos, including some all out sparring...but this will have to wait since I'm presently in the process of looking for a new Manhattan location for my school.

[Vajramusti]

Wing chunners are not the only ones who have to look out for hookers in Manhattan.

joy chaudhuri

[SoCo KungFu]

Your reaction will never be as fast as their action.

By trying to step and devote BOTH hands to your block ON ONE SIDE you are not only further delaying your ability react to subsequent attacks, but you are leaving the right side of your head clear open. You really think you're going to recover in time to keep blocking like that? When exactly did you plan to go on the offensive? Isn't that y'alls no no of "chasing hands?"

One of the strengths in boxing is the ability to defend without committing a hand to the defense. And general shielding of the blow has a much higher success rate than trying to intercept in the way you propose. And you are instantly in position to retaliate.

I seriously think you underestimate the speed which even an average amateur boxer can deliver a punch or more appropriately a series of punches ( you really didn't think they were going to just throw one did you?)

Oh and when people throw that double hook sequence, well for one they usually set it up. Secondly, they're going to often step into your range with their rear foot almost parallel. That first hook will have less power, but that second one in stepping this way is "wound up" by the first. The second one (the one you will likely be slow to block since you committed yourself on the first) will straight clean your f'n clock.

This isn't the greatest, not world class boxer obviously, but certainly more effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqGNYOHnUc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2WHi...eature=related

I'd only add that this isn't going to completely shield you with no gloves on. I'd raise the shield slightly higher almost so your elbow points forward. That's what a lot of MMA guys, military combatives and such. It leaves your ribs open though, but most guys are head hunters.

So we have more general shielding, less hand chasing and more very reactive counter offensive, and omg did he square straight off on his opponent on that roll out? Holy crap, is this Wing Chun theory at work?

[SoCo KungFu]

I really don't understand why so many WC people hold such a disdain for boxing strategy. I would seem to me from what many of you profess is WC principle that boxing should meld quite nicely, maybe not seamlessly but certainly harmoniously.

[SoCo KungFu]

2) it seems that the WC guy is anticipating the moves right from the get-go..he even steps to the left, perhaps because he knows which hook is coming? what if he didn't? would he still step to the left?

3) we don't know how hard the WC guy is hitting the shoulders, so it's hard to say it it'll really stop it or perhaps it really is stopping the hook.

4) based on simply these clips, i personally do not think it would be enough to stop a full speed hook, with weight behind it, especially coming from a guy of that size (but again, see point 3 above).

2) I could see him possibly still stepping. It seems you WC guys like to keep your footwork really narrow (at least by comparison to other systems). I think he could still step into it. The question is though, is it really advantageous to do so? The only benefit I can see is maybe increasing distance from the other hand which will no doubt be coming. But is that better than just going straight on into a counter offensive? Isn't that what WC is supposed to do?

3) Back in my mantis days we would train something similar. The idea was to destroy an incoming attack by attacking the offensive limb at its base joint. So for a punch the base joint being the should, a kick would be attacked at the pelvis. For kicks, if you are quick enough (which is hard) it can really work well. A good teep there can knock em clear down. I've seen it used in competition and guy couldn't finish the match. Reports later where the teep dislocated the joint. Shoulders though, there's so much going on there to stabilize a shoulder anatomically. A full blown hook with weight behind it, I don't see it working with high efficiency. And if it did, you've still committed 2 hands to one, what then?

4) Agreed

[Hardwork108]

From the videos that I've seen, punching from center line as we are taught in Wing Chun is easily avoided by systems such as western Boxing. Boxers are taught to avoid strikes, parry, and block. How do we control distance in a fight when or opponet moves every time we enter?]

All martial arts train you to avoid strikes and their footwork will play a fundemental part in this. The creators of Wing Chun, were of course aware of this fact. Correctly trained WC will give you the necessary foot work to deal with such situations. The trick is finding the a genuine school.

If we draw in a boxer, he will try to hook over our lead hand. A boxers hands can be very fast. How can I trap what I can not catch?

You can always "stick". That is one of the WAYS of Wing Chun.

Also, talking of hooks, Wing Chun has a very potent way of dealing with hooks, specially with the wider variety. I have never seen anyone refer to that technique here, even though a couple of years ago I started a thread on WC defenses against hooks, to see if anyone else was aware of the technique.

Anyway, I am still waiting and I am relatively young, so let's see..... LOL

HW108

[Hardwork108]

about wing chun vs. hooks...

1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1d1OyedoDE

2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7rdDn3uTR8

Very, very, different from the way I was taught, including the angles, distancing, targeting, stance/footwork, etc.

[Hardwork108]

1) it seems like the black dude isn't really throwing it with full force nor follow through

This is a very important point. A powerful hook can collapse your structure, even if you manage to catch it. I believe that WC teachers should test the integrity of a given block by gradually increasing the power of given strikes to a point where they become hay makers. This will allow students to make the necessary adjustments and use the CORRECT structure and blocks against the more powerful punches.

4) based on simply these clips, i personally do not think it would be enough to stop a full speed hook, with weight behind it, especially coming from a guy of that size (but again, see point 3 above).

I agree with you, eventhough i suspect that they may work for Victor, personally. Of course, I was taught very differently that is to block and step inside, using the force of the hook to power my counter attack through the rolling of the stance. The step is INWARDS through angling to take the opponent's space and central line. If there is a second attack then it is block and one more step INWARDS, again, in order to overwhelm the opponent.

Anyway, I guess different lineages have their different ways......

One more thing I would add is that Victor's groin area seemed to be vulnerable against the opponent's kicks. Perhaps, he can clarify this?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"By trying to step and devote BOTH hands to your block ON ONE SIDE you are not only further delaying your ability react to subsequent attacks, but you are leaving the right side of your head clear open. You really think you're going to recover in time to keep blocking like that? When exactly did you plan to go on the offensive?" (SoCo)
..................

***INTERESTING POINTS, Soco. But tell me, did you watch both vids (wing chun vs. hooks parts 1&2)...???

I am on the offensive if I blast his shoulder - and especially so if I punch to the head/face instead of the shoulder. (And again, see both vids for an explanation of when I'll punch at one target and when at the other).

But the most interesting part of your post for me was about leaving myself open...and I apologize in advance for not having another vid (yet) to demonstrate what I'm about to say: using this kind of technique when not in the parallel (matched leads) starting position against a lead hook...

but rather, in the more conventional cross arm starting position.

The right side of my head will clearly be open if I throw the return fire punch at the shoulder of his punchung arm, from cross position, yes....you're right...

(Not so in the parallel matched leads position because i'm moving away from his rear hand...but in cross arm position I am vulnerable...which is why I teach my students to return the fire against the lead hook coming from his lead arm (when in the cross position)....

throw the return fire at his other shoulder...since I am anticipating a punch could immediately be thrown from there by the opponent (his other arm)....

that is, when a clear shot to return fire at his face/head doesn't seem reachable.

And again: it's all about timing and distance...

because I, for one, don't distain traditional boxing methods (and defenses)...and will use boxing moves (both offense and defense) when I see the advantage of doing so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Very, very, different from the way I was taught, including the angles, distancing, targeting, stance/footwork, etc.

***THIS IS TWC...(Traditional Wing Chun)....and yes it's a different way of responding than say, Ving Tsun, for example.

[Hardwork108]

***THIS IS TWC...(Traditional Wing Chun)....and yes it's a different way of responding than say, Ving Tsun, for example.

.....Or even Siu Lam Wing Chun.

I was not really criticizing. If your system works for you and you are happy with it, and can use it without having to borrow stuff from other systems, then your given kung fu system is doing its job. At the end of the day, that is what really matters.

[SoCo KungFu]

This is a very important point. A powerful hook can collapse your structure, even if you manage to catch it. I believe that WC teachers should test the integrity of a given block by gradually increasing the power of given strikes to a point where they become hay makers. This will allow students to make the necessary adjustments and use the CORRECT structure and blocks against the more powerful punches.

Hay makers (at least to me) are synonymous with a wild punch. Those are ideally some of the more easier to defend as the force is not supported structurally. In a "perfect" world a "perfect" hook is tighter. The arm is bent approx 90 degrees, the shoulder is not to far extended, the arm is parallel to the plane of movement, the fist would follow in with your center line. This is anatomically one of the strongest positions you could hold your arm in this motion of travel...."in a perfect world." Although yes, you should test the integrity of EVERY technique against a solid resisting force. Structure of doing forms in air means little to structure of hitting solid objects.

I agree with you, eventhough i suspect that they may work for Victor, personally. Of course, I was taught very differently that is to block and step inside, using the force of the hook to power my counter attack through the rolling of the stance.

Accept the force and coil to absorb it, unwind to power your attack. Similar to taiji and I know you'll love this, boxing...

The step is INWARDS through angling to take the opponent's space and central line. If there is a second attack then it is block and one more step INWARDS, again, in order to overwhelm the opponent.

Just keep you hands up and chin down...this is one way to get sucked in to a nasty hook.

OMG I might somewhat partially agree with a post by HW8. This is one strange f'n day....

[grasshopper 2.0]

great feedback - i can say in my experience, even a slow, light hook off a chi-sao platform can slip in with relative ease once the angles are gone.

and that's assuming:

- chi-sao contact
- you already know it's a hook coming at you
- you know it's gonna be a right hook
- the guy throwing the hook is your partner and not even a boxer
- you're not in any fighting mentality

and even in that case, the hook slips in.

the hook is dangerous. in my experience, only a small handful of people that i've crossed hands with wing chun background could consistently and effectively stop this without completely anticipating the move, use strength, and purely focusing 100% on the incoming hooking punch.

i think it'd be cool to see more of the guys on here, even of other styles, to post some vids on how to deal with this.

i'm still trying to figure it out...

[Hardwork108]

Hay makers (at least to me) are synonymous with a wild punch. Those are ideally some of the more easier to defend as the force is not supported structurally. In a "perfect" world a "perfect" hook is tighter. The arm is bent approx 90 degrees, the shoulder is not to far extended, the arm is parallel to the plane of movement, the fist would follow in with your center line. This is anatomically one of the strongest positions you could hold your arm in this motion of travel...."in a perfect world."

I guess the key point still remains, and that is to test the structure of your block against powerful - in this case - hooks, which can completely destroy one's structure if one uses the wrong structure and or block.

Although yes, you should test the integrity of EVERY technique against a solid resisting force. Structure of doing forms in air means little to structure of hitting solid objects.

Forms have their own place of importance in traditional kung fu training and so does, believe it or not, the training of hitting solid objects or getting hit by others.

Accept the force and coil to absorb it, unwind to power your attack.

And in the lineage that I train, you are inside your opponents central line and you are stepping in and invading his space while doing so. Furthermore, you may even have access to targets such as the neck arteries (45 degree Yin punch) or the throat (twisting upward punch).

Similar to taiji and I know you'll love this, boxing...

Each system has its own particular ways, including its own advantages and disadvantages.

OMG I might somewhat partially agree with a post by HW8. This is one strange f'n day....

It seems that my patience with you has paid-off in the end.

[SoCo KungFu]

"By trying to step and devote BOTH hands to your block ON ONE SIDE you are not only further delaying your ability react to subsequent attacks, but you are leaving the right side of your head clear open. You really think you're going to recover in time to keep blocking like that? When exactly did you plan to go on the offensive?" (SoCo)
..................

***INTERESTING POINTS, Soco. But tell me, did you watch both vids (wing chun vs. hooks parts 1&2)...???

I am on the offensive if I blast his shoulder - and especially so if I punch to the head/face instead of the shoulder. (And again, see both vids for an explanation of when I'll punch at one target and when at the other).

Like I said this isn't a new concept to me. We did this in mantis. The idea was "kwa." Upward deflection understood to have a simultaneous strike alongside. Although after having my rib broke from a roundkick, I really dislike the notion of upwardly deflecting much anything. Jamming it at the side is good enough for me.

But the most interesting part of your post for me was about leaving myself open...and I apologize in advance for not having another vid (yet) to demonstrate what I'm about to say: using this kind of technique when not in the parallel (matched leads) starting position against a lead hook...

but rather, in the more conventional cross arm starting position.

Maybe its cuz its almost 1am I been studying all day for a biology exam and I just go done with 3 hours of grappling and slightly hypoxic from rolling with a dude 100lbs heavier than me, but your terminology is confusing. But in both your vids you are standing "roughly" orthodox and your students both were southpaw. So I'll go on the assumption that you are now referring to both being either orthodox or southpaw.

The right side of my head will clearly be open if I throw the return fire punch at the shoulder of his punchung arm, from cross position, yes....you're right...

(Not so in the parallel matched leads position because i'm moving away from his rear hand...but in cross arm position I am vulnerable...which is why I teach my students to return the fire against the lead hook coming from his lead arm (when in the cross position)....

Okay, scratch that. I'm just plain confused now. If you are stepping into his attacking lead and away from his rear, one of you would have to be ortho and one southy, just as in the vids. If you are both ortho then the rear hand would be closer and you'd have even less time to react than in the vids. Because even stepping into his lead, his point of initiation would have been closer. Even in offset stance, I still as I said don't think you will have that luxury of time. I see rear straight to an open jaw.

throw the return fire at his other shoulder...since I am anticipating a punch could immediately be thrown from there by the opponent (his other arm)....

that is, when a clear shot to return fire at his face/head doesn't seem reachable.

And again: it's all about timing and distance...

Most of my perspective from this comes from me being southpaw myself. I feel everyday the craptastic ordeal it is in dealing with that change in distance. The first thing I learned as a southpaw was that a rear straight is either my worst enemy or my best friend. Anytime guys are offset, as soon as you commit your lead hand you are vulnerable to a counter rear straight. Honestly that's the first thing I see in your first vid, it was right there just begging to be thrown. Especially since both your arms are on his right 2 on 1. I love when I get a guest or a newby come in that is southpaw as well. My range is soooo much easier to deal with. Closer distance, man block like that my lefts a'comin'. Lead hook, rear straight....that's what I see. As for two hooks, his distance was off anyways. Even in the street disregarding notions of strategy in an adrenaline dump, you're going to throw as soon as you in range right? Meaning a lead jab/straight of some sort. 1,2 combo to get in range. Then step in with the REAR foot on the lead hook, means hook #2 is already in range and I get to unwind all my force into it. I don't even care if you jam my lead, it was a setup anyways. If you step into it, you doing me an added favor of lining it all up for me.

I think you'd be better served just keeping your hands up and slip the punch and exploit an exposed flank.

because I, for one, don't distain traditional boxing methods (and defenses)...and will use boxing moves (both offense and defense) when I see the advantage of doing so.

I respect that.

I don't want yall to misuderstand, I'm not bashing WC. That would just be dumb of me. Its like this, the stuff I see yall say is WC principle, I see in mantis and boxing as well. Things like don't chase hands, trying to close off their center while maintaining yours (essentially exploiting their flanks), etc. To me in the absence of the vids that people are all asking for, the fact that others use similar CONCEPTS is the greatest proof you have as to the validity of yours. Because things that work, tend to be pretty universal right? The methods to employ those concepts are what I tend to question at times. The concept itself I have no beef with.

In a way in the vids, you're doing exactly the same CONCEPT. His lead hook exposes him to a rear straight, which you kinda use. But I just think the method is off. I'd rather just shield and absorb or duck under leaving you an open audience for your instrument of chin music. But man, leaving your hands down, chin up and blocking like that...be careful yo or you be the one hearing bells ring.

And not be a ****, but just pointing out. In the 2nd vid it was pretty clear, your student is way telegraphing himself. He's like dipping down then popping up with each strike. If my dumb @$$ can see it, people gonna time off that like clockwork.