Aikido

[SnowDog]

i have to say what i experience isnt like what you see on average from aikido in demonstrations and such. it felt more 'real' than what ive visually experienced from youtube and such. i was able to choose a technique for the class to work with, Gedan something or other. actually a pretty brutal technique. the variation we worked was a sweeping throw.

That's good to know, I've always stayed away from the Aikido schools here because of the fake looking videos I've seen and too many of the Hippyish non-fighters I met that were taking classes. I wonder if there are other more "real" branches around.

[Dale Dugas]

Find yourself an Iwama Ha Aikido school.

More real than most.

[Scott R. Brown]

ya it was a hip/thigh sweep assisted by the arm . i wish i knew the name ill find out tonight. basically you move to the outside, break their stance by stepping behind and locking your hip lower than theirs and sweeping them over your thigh with your arm to their chest. depending on execution it can result in a nice slam, which can be followed to side mount quickly.

this one really reminded me of my taiji experiences.

If you performed the throw using the back/side of your arm as you pivot in an opening motion, it was probably Kokyu Nage. Typically the arm should move up from underneath the chin to move the head up and back. Where the head goes the body goes.

If you performed the throw using the front of your arm moving in more of a closing movement, it was probably Irimi Nage. Irimi Nage can work with the arm across the chest with some modifications, but it is more effective when the arm moves up and under the chin as well.

Both can be very devastating when performed properly.

[pazman]

Lucas,
I did Shodokan Aikido (Tomiki method Aikido) in Japan for about six years. I found it very worthwhile and I'm really happy somebody else on the KFM forums has experienced it.

The technique you described is Gendan Ate, a basic, "bread-and-butter" technique that you'll be enjoying for a long time to come. In fact, the five Atemi practiced in Shodokan could be considered an in-depth martial art unto itself. Shodokan doesn't use the typical Aikikai naming system with regards to technique names (ie Ikkyo, Nikyo, Irimi Nage, etc). Instead, the naming has more to do with Judo naming conventions.

Tomiki did indeed spend some time in a Russian prison camp at the close of WWII. He was a PE teacher in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation. This is where he developed the basic exercises "Unsoku" and "Tegatana Dosa". In addition to developing this style of Aikido, Tomiki also played a large role in developing various kata for the Kodokan (he also held master rankings in Judo and Kendo).

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank you for your comments pazman, they are very interesting. I read about Tomiki years and years ago, but I remember very little about him.

Can you remember when he trained in Aikido and with whom?

Also any other interesting details would be appreciated!

What is Gendan Ate comparable to according to the common Aikido naming conventions?

[pazman]

Scott,
I'm really not so acquainted with the common aikido naming, but no matter....here's the honbu's website with animated gifs of the technique in question:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

That website has loads of interesting information.

Tomiki trained Aikido directly under Ueshiba from 1925 until 1936. He was the first to receive menkyo kaidan under Ueshiba. His fame in Judo training primarily comes from his time in the Waseda University Judo club. He later became the Judo instructor there after his return to Japan. After Judo lessons he would teach interested students a little Aikido. This interest resulted in the formation of the Waseda Aikido Club in 1858, and the beginnings of formal competitions, utilizing Tomiki's randori concepts.

I recommend the book "Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge" by Shishida and Nariyama. There is some interesting information about both Tomiki and Ueshiba.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi pazman,

Thank you for the info. Cool website!

Gyakugamae ate is one closest to Kokyu Nage.

Aigamae ate the closest to Irimi Nage.

As I recall Tomiki was either asked to use different names or chose to do it. Either way his purpose was to avoid problems with, or disrespect to, the Home School.

[pazman]

As I recall Tomiki was either asked to use different names or chose to do it. Either way his purpose was to avoid problems with, or disrespect to, the Home School.

That's interesting. There's not a lot of info concerning the apparent split between Tomiki and the Aikikai. Like a lot of things in Japan, "in the family" sort of issues are typically resovled, erm, "in the family." However, the feeling on the "street" is that we are one big Aikido family (which is part of the even bigger jiujutsu family) One of my most memorable training experiences was partaking in a class that had an Aikikai master, the Shodokan deshi, and a handful of Yoshinkan blackbelts. Very cool experience. There's really not as big of division between the styles as many people would believe.

I find the naming quite handy. My Judo teacher became quite interested in Aikido after he had me demonstrate it in class one day. The naming system allowed me, with my pitiful Japanese, to explain the techniques clearly.

@Lucas,
I'd like to hear more of your thoughts concerning taiji and aikido. I've had a lot of thoughts about the subject, too but haven't had to chance to bounce them off of people.

[Lucas]

okay i just typed a huge response and when i hit submit there was an error, dont have time at work to retype the huge ass book i just lost.

gedan ate is the technique.

ill try and reformulate my post this weekend.....

[Scott R. Brown]

okay i just typed a huge response and when i hit submit there was an error, dont have time at work to retype the huge ass book i just lost.

gedan ate is the technique.

ill try and reformulate my post this weekend.....

I learned a loooooong time ago....if you are going to write a long post ALWAYS write it in WORD first! I hate it when you spend a long time on something only to lose it all in the end!

[Scott R. Brown]

I am on vacation this week and for the first time in about 12 years I had the chance to go to my old Aikido school with my boys.

Interestingly enough, they were working on counters too.

We did:

1) Nikyo-to-Sankyo

and

2) Nikyo-to-Irimi Nage

I did well. I would say I really haven't lost anything. I did just as well as my friend who has been going non-stop for almost 20 years.

[Lucas]

Some neat development for me. Ive been wanting to study shuai jiao or judo for quite some time. The only judo school ive been able to locate in my city is on the other side. Basically I cant make it on time. I mentioned this to my aikido instructor and he said judo was his first art, and that he would be happy to work some judo with me. Also he has experience in brazillian jujitsu.

One of the great things is aside from being a martial art instructor is that hes a coach. He has coached not only martial artists but snow boarders, runners, and hockey players with great results. Essentially he knows how to impart knowledge and physical skill to people with in depth methods and coaching strategies. Training with him you can see that he is able to read how people learn and how to approach people, and at what pace. Pretty good sign to me.

I really enjoy the method that this aikido uses in regards to the structure of its material. 5 base techniques are taught, then expanded upon with the multitudes of variations of each technique.

I’m sure a lot of what I see as similarities are just cross overs that both arts have from the grappling aspect. Also my lack of experience in either art would leave a more of a blured line I would think in my perception of similarities.

However aside from technique of course (the first technique variation (reverse clothesline) I learned in aikido is the same thing as parting the horse's mane in taiji. done slightly differently of course), one of the first similarities i noticed is the footwork. Not the patterns of stepping, but the method of stepping and weight distribution. The glide.

Also just the way my instructor moves during application strikes me as very similar to the way my taiji friends move. The coiling and expanding and explosive power at the pinnacle of the technique is what ive experienced with chen taiji. I feel that my experience in both arts is far to limited and narrow though.

I do plan to continue to share with my good taiji friend and bounce my material off of him and share thoughts, ideas, applications and so forth. Even though he ribs me for ‘moving away from Chinese arts’. But I don’t think im moving away so much as im bringing them with me.

Anyhow, a bit of small similarities noticed by an unexperienced eye that could just very well be blind and seeing shadows.

I’ll be sure to post more thoughts as they come up or are given to me.

[Scott R. Brown]

All good stuff there Lucas. Most of what I understand about TaiChi I learned in Aikido first!

To me Aikido is an excellent second or third art. There is too much impractical stuff in it to be a persons only art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you are moving in a "circular" fashion, as is done in Aikido ( and Bagua, hint), the only way to get powerful strikes is to do "coiling and expanding" like in Taiji, ) or bagua).

[Lucas]

okay that makes some sense to me.