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Thread: Why do you train wing chun?

  1. #1
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    Why do you train wing chun?

    I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. I rarely post as I am pretty young in wing chun and I never feel like I have much to add. Especially when you have guys like Phil, Victor and Joy that are really saying more then I ever could. What does amaze me is how a forum full of Wing chun people can be so full of wing chun bashing. I mean theads about chi sao and other techniques are basically all trashing the very back bone of wing chun IMO. I get it we need to train realistically. I don't think there is person on the board that can't get behind that.

    What I'm asking here is if you see so many issues with wing chun and it's practices then why train it at all? Guys llike T train wing chun but then bash it every chance they get. Why? If it isn't working for you and the ideas and techniques simply do not work then why the heck are you training it.

    Let me start off by answering this question myself. I train wing chun because I feel it is the best fit for me. I enjoy it's simplicity. Well that was at frist until I realized after a year or two how deep the system really was. Now I enjoy that depth. To me it's simple direct and effective. But that's my experience and it would appear that not everyone has that same point of view. That and the second I saw chi sao on youtube I was sold. It just looked like fun. Way more fun then all those kick boxing classes I was taking when I was a kid. I'm not trying to be a warrior or a MMA guy or anything of the sort. I spar because I want to know what I'm learning will work. So far the sparring has shown me that as long as I don't mess up it does work. But again this is my experience and everyone has their own.

    So why do you train wing chun? What attracted you to it originally? What keeps you coming back week after week to train?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. I rarely post as I am pretty young in wing chun and I never feel like I have much to add. Especially when you have guys like Phil, Victor and Joy that are really saying more then I ever could. What does amaze me is how a forum full of Wing chun people can be so full of wing chun bashing. I mean theads about chi sao and other techniques are basically all trashing the very back bone of wing chun IMO. I get it we need to train realistically. I don't think there is person on the board that can't get behind that.

    What I'm asking here is if you see so many issues with wing chun and it's practices then why train it at all? Guys llike T train wing chun but then bash it every chance they get. Why? If it isn't working for you and the ideas and techniques simply do not work then why the heck are you training it.

    Let me start off by answering this question myself. I train wing chun because I feel it is the best fit for me. I enjoy it's simplicity. Well that was at frist until I realized after a year or two how deep the system really was. Now I enjoy that depth. To me it's simple direct and effective. But that's my experience and it would appear that not everyone has that same point of view. That and the second I saw chi sao on youtube I was sold. It just looked like fun. Way more fun then all those kick boxing classes I was taking when I was a kid. I'm not trying to be a warrior or a MMA guy or anything of the sort. I spar because I want to know what I'm learning will work. So far the sparring has shown me that as long as I don't mess up it does work. But again this is my experience and everyone has their own.

    So why do you train wing chun? What attracted you to it originally? What keeps you coming back week after week to train?
    Like you I train in Wing Chun because I enjoy it, that is the primary reason. It's hard to explain why I enjoy, I remember the time I first visited the kwoon and observed the class and speaking with my 1st Sifu, something about it just clicked and I was hooked. I wasn't looking to join a Martial Arts class, a friend of my Father suggested I come down to check it out as I had plans to become a police officer (changed my mind after), so logic would say it is wise to learn how to protect yourself to aide me in my possible duties as PO.

    I find it interesting too, how much bashing there is of the art on a forum dedicated to discussing it. You would think that if you didn't practice the art or believe in it you wouldn't come here to discuss it, but that common sense doesn't seem to common here. The reason I believe is the fact that most people live in a false world or run their lives based on a false identity or ego. Ego is all about seperation, thinking, making me seem better than you, your wrong I'm right, bla bla bla. People with ego's push agendas, repeat themselves in every post, put down others for not agreeing with them, and a whole bunch of other things that try to make themselves look right and everyone else look wrong.

    Whether or not one person is doing something supposedly right or wrong, can fight or can't, what does it matter to anyone else? A ton of people do karate and TKD, I don't necessarily agree on a Martial level with what those systems teach and how they teach it, but on the larger scale I could careless, people will do what they do based on their wants and needs, and if those two things are being fullfilled then they will continue on that path, I wish them the best. I don't go on Karte/TKD forums and bash what they are doing, telling them they are pu$$ies and all those kata are meaningless, that's school yard my Dad is stronger than your Dad stuff, hopefully we grow out of that thinking and mature a bit as we age. It amazes me the immaturity level of the people on the forum, Martial Arts is just as much a spiritual practice as it is for training self protection. I guess due to some free time and habit I still come here and post once in awhile, its getting less and less as time goes by, but I have good memories of this forum as if it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't be training in the VT system I train in, so it was good for something in the past in my POV.

    What keeps me coming back to train and teach, again it's about enjoying the experience, plus I am learning another system of Ving Tsun for about 4yrs now and the learning is a constant thing, I still have much to absorb and understand so it keeps me interested. Plus I like the sharing and teaching, it helps me understand more about myself and the system I am sharing, it's pleasurable seeing people come in with no skills at all to all of a sudden a couple of months later being able to exibit some of the skill sets Ving Tsun teaches, its very gratifying, and fun for them as well. I learned William Cheung version of WC from 88' 06', became full instructor and taught for years in that system under my 1st Sifu, and now I train in WSL VT and have a small club where I live here in Thunder Bay.

    James

  3. #3
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    You should do a MA because you love it, not because of what ANYONE thinks about it.
    A MA is as effective as the person using it, so that in of itself is not a reason to love or hate a MA.
    MA are things, they don't live and breath, they are inanimate objects, there is nothing to hate about a MA nor love, other than how it makes you feel.
    My times in WC was great, I loved it.
    Yes I saw the bad as well as the good so what did I do?
    Make the bad good, that simple.

    Enjoyment is the only possible, SANE answer to what ANYONE does any MA !
    LOL !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #4
    First of all, welcome to the forum as a poster. And you raise some good issues and questions that should be answered.

    Let me begin with a negative and move from there to the positives: what T has to say is, imo,
    (and I know that many other people will agree with this as well) - is based upon the fact that he probably never really learned that much wing chun - but claims to have spent many years doing it...so he's frustrated and angry about the whole thing. And the result is that he bashes the system every chance he gets - or opportunity he himself creates.

    And in his rush to point out deficiencies within wing chun training merthods - he often shows complete willingness to throw out the baby with the bath water (ie.- things like the forms, wooden dummy training, chi sao, etc.)

    That said, there are issues not only with long standing and conventional wing chun training methods - but also other issues having to do with the limitations of wing chun as a whole (regardless of lineage) that many people fail to acknowledge.

    And while I believe that some systems of wing chun offer more answers to fighting than other systems (and imo it would be counter-productive to this discussion to get into details)...nonetheless...

    every system of wing chun has limitations that need to be recognized as such and dealt with honestly.

    Furthermore, what the system as a whole has sorely lacked - and not all systems/lineages fall into this category - but a great many do...is a general understanding that hard sparring done on a very frequent basis is an absolute must.

    AN ABSOLUTE MUST.

    And not just against wing chun - but against people skilled in other arts as well.

    Now personally, what keeps me coming back to wing chun week-after-week, year-after-year is the directness of the whole wing chun approach to fighting - and the recognition that training to fight at very close quarters is extremely important.

    I have chosen to add other elements to this as time has passed - but the basic wing chun idea of getting in close and dominating the centerline/centralines of the fight with punches, palm strikes, elbows, knees, low kicks, and the control and manipulation of the opponents limbs and overall balance....these things make wing chun very attractive to me.

    And yes, it's fun...as long as we understand that "fun" things like chi sao are just training methods - because the real proof is in the pudding: sparring/fighting on a regular basis with serious contact (including headshots)...so protective gear is highly recommended...

    and against skilled, resisting opponents on a very frequent basis.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 04-01-2010 at 11:58 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Let me begin with a negative and move from there to the positives: what T has to say is, imo,
    (and I know that many other people will agree with this as well) - is based upon the fact that he probably never really learned that much wing chun - but claims to have spent many years doing it...so he's frustrated and angry about the whole thing. And the result is that he bashes the system every chance he gets - or opportunity he himself creates.

    And in his rush to point out deficiencies within wing chun training merthods - he often shows complete willingness to throw out the baby with the bath water (ie.- things like the forms, wooden dummy training, chi sao, etc.)
    I am not angry or frustrated with WCK. WCK is a great art IME. I have never belittled the art. But I do think a great many of its practitioners like you are silly.

    The trouble with WCK, like all TCMAs, is that its teaching/training model is extremely poor. TCMAs are hugely poplular, perhaps the most popular on the planet. So, why don't we see practitioners of TCMAs doing well in NHB, vale tudo, MMA, etc.? And why are the only one who are able to perform in those venues people who cross-train in the functional arts?

    Well, for the same reason we don't see practitoners of traditional japanese jiujitsu performing well in NHB, valetudo, MMA, etc. TJJJ has the same technical base as judo and BJJ, yet has produced no one of consequence. Why?

    The answer is in how it is taught and trained.

    People like you don't grasp that anytime your movement, your total, overall movement, in your training (drills or exercises or sparring) looks different than your fighting, then your training is wrong, you are wasting your time, and you are developing bad habits.

    As far as me "never having learned much WCK", that very notion shows you are confused about WCK -- it's not some deep academic subject, it is a skill set, an approach to fighting (he never learned much riding the bike!). Silly. All anyone can teach you, besides the loads of bullsh1t that is palmed off as "knowledge", is the method (which you don't have) and the fundamental skills to implement the method (which you misinterpret since you don't have the method).

    And, btw, the forms, dummy, chi sao, is the bathwater (the teaching/training method) not the baby (WCK).
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 03-31-2010 at 02:51 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. I rarely post as I am pretty young in wing chun and I never feel like I have much to add. Especially when you have guys like Phil, Victor and Joy that are really saying more then I ever could.
    Yes, there is a lot of "knowledge" being dispensed. Too bad it is mostly nonsense.

    What does amaze me is how a forum full of Wing chun people can be so full of wing chun bashing. I mean theads about chi sao and other techniques are basically all trashing the very back bone of wing chun IMO. I get it we need to train realistically. I don't think there is person on the board that can't get behind that.
    The trouble is that you say that -- and so do many others -- but you're not doing it. Nor do you understand the "principle" behind realistic training: that you develop any skill only by doing that skill (under the same conditions).

    What I'm asking here is if you see so many issues with wing chun and it's practices then why train it at all? Guys llike T train wing chun but then bash it every chance they get. Why?
    I don't bash WCK -- I bash all the bullsh1t associated with it. More than 90% of what you hear on this forum is absolute nonsense, it is bullsh1t.

    If it isn't working for you and the ideas and techniques simply do not work then why the heck are you training it.
    That'a a very good question. Now apply that to yourself. You say your WCK is working, right? OK, go visit a MMA school or a MT school or a boxing gym and spar -- see how well your WCK works. Are you able to do what you train to do as you train to do it?

    If you won't do that, ask yourself why not.

    Let me start off by answering this question myself. I train wing chun because I feel it is the best fit for me. I enjoy it's simplicity. Well that was at frist until I realized after a year or two how deep the system really was. Now I enjoy that depth. To me it's simple direct and effective. But that's my experience and it would appear that not everyone has that same point of view. That and the second I saw chi sao on youtube I was sold. It just looked like fun. Way more fun then all those kick boxing classes I was taking when I was a kid. I'm not trying to be a warrior or a MMA guy or anything of the sort. I spar because I want to know what I'm learning will work. So far the sparring has shown me that as long as I don't mess up it does work. But again this is my experience and everyone has their own.
    If you enjoy something then by all means keep doing it. Some people love aikido. Some love Scottish dance. Others, like me and the republicans, like watching faux lesbian sex! It's all good.

    But when people start talking about using their WCK in fighting, how to effectively train, etc. then it goes beyond mere enjoyment. Results now matter.

    So why do you train wing chun? What attracted you to it originally? What keeps you coming back week after week to train?
    I like WCK because of its focus on contact/attached fighting.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 03-31-2010 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. I rarely post as I am pretty young in wing chun and I never feel like I have much to add. Especially when you have guys like Phil, Victor and Joy that are really saying more then I ever could. What does amaze me is how a forum full of Wing chun people can be so full of wing chun bashing. I mean theads about chi sao and other techniques are basically all trashing the very back bone of wing chun IMO. I get it we need to train realistically. I don't think there is person on the board that can't get behind that.

    ((My advice - pay no mind to the noise and the bashing.Good wing chun and practicing it regularly will return your investment in time and patience many times over))

    What I'm asking here is if you see so many issues with wing chun and it's practices then why train it at all? Guys llike T train wing chun but then bash it every chance they get. Why? If it isn't working for you and the ideas and techniques simply do not work then why the heck are you training it.

    ((There is sadly a lot of compulsive addiction to the net. I usually pay or try to pay no attention to the frequent bashers and those who really have minimal interest in wing chun. This forum for sometime has missed the opportunity for good dialog on wing chun. But there are other occasions and avenues for mature discussion. For some time I am the only person in my lineage to occasionally post. Generally this forum does not give newcomers much of an idea of what wing chun is about)) ))

    Let me start off by answering this question myself. I train wing chun because I feel it is the best fit for me. I enjoy it's simplicity. Well that was at frist until I realized after a year or two how deep the system really was. Now I enjoy that depth. To me it's simple direct and effective. But that's my experience and it would appear that not everyone has that same point of view. That and the second I saw chi sao on youtube I was sold. It just looked like fun. Way more fun then all those kick boxing classes I was taking when I was a kid. I'm not trying to be a warrior or a MMA guy or anything of the sort. I spar because I want to know what I'm learning will work. So far the sparring has shown me that as long as I don't mess up it does work. But again this is my experience and everyone has their own.

    ((Good clear and interesting statement. Thanks and welcome to the posting culture)

    So why do you train wing chun? What attracted you to it originally? What keeps you coming back week after week to train?
    ((I already had done some martial arts and sports in two countries and had practical serious self defense experiences. Living in Tucson I wanted my sons to be able to take care of themselves.
    I visited every martial arts school in Tucson...looking for an art that would serve well in the long run for self defense, learning an art and even for health with the right mix.I also read voraciously about martial arts in general. The sons went their way- one soon became fairly good with his fists, another became better coordinated and a third(really their cousin who I helped raise became a champion high school grappler in Oklahoma-my late wife's state. At first I didn't fully understand the depth of wing chun-it grew on me and it continues to amaze me-it is a great study in efficient martial motion. I find out things for myself and encourage others to do so.I respect my teacher and my kung fu brothers and sisters- and as a carry over from a very inquiring profession-I belong to no cult.
    Joy Chaudhuri)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post

    Well, for the same reason we don't see practitoners of traditional japanese jiujitsu performing well in NHB, valetudo, MMA, etc. TJJJ has the same technical base as judo and BJJ, yet has produced no one of consequence. Why?

    The answer is in how it is taught and trained.
    chi sao, forms, wooden dummy etc are not useless as T would think, however they have their place.

    why do you not see WC and other TMAs in competitive sports? it IS the training, but its not exactly as T thinks. chi sao, wooden dummy etc. are like a boxer training the speed bag or double ended bag. they are drills to aid the development of some skills. you can get real good doing these things, but if that is all you do every day you will still fail miserably in a live situation because you cannot apply what you learned.

    the main reason IMO why you do not see TMAs in competitive sports is that most people who do TMAs and teach TMAs these days are not super serious about fighting and trying to be competitive.

    As a result they lack they typically lack the physical conditioning needed to compete.

    Also, beceause WC is not built as a sport (as is MT, Boxing, BJJ) there are a lack of trainers in TMAs who are experienced in coaching and training in the sporting environment--you can be a bad ass TMA guy yourself, but who says you can be a good teacher/coach/trainer?


    Because BJJ, boxing, etc. have competition as a major part of their training this also does two things:

    1. Creates a market and financial incentive which then creates a larger number of coaches
    2. Creates a quality control system where bad coaches are weeded out
    3. Allows competition to create goals for people who then train harder to achieve those goals


    If there was a WC fight league, we wouldnt have so many discussions about tan sao this fook sao that. There wouldn't be any abstract theoretical discussions about triangles and rotational axises and hip girdles in these forums. Nothing about what root is and what it isn't. Do you hold the fist tight? Do you hold it loose? Is it loose but then tight? Hendrick would not have a place to say anything and confuse us all.

    WC is simple. WC power generation is simple. you would just see what works and what does not

    IMO these days people make up these theories to try to justify what they learned instead of using real fighting experience to justify it.

    this is @$$ backwards.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman View Post
    chi sao, forms, wooden dummy etc are not useless as T would think, however they have their place.
    Yes, they are and I ahve explained why.

    why do you not see WC and other TMAs in competitive sports? it IS the training, but its not exactly as T thinks. chi sao, wooden dummy etc. are like a boxer training the speed bag or double ended bag. they are drills to aid the development of some skills. you can get real good doing these things, but if that is all you do every day you will still fail miserably in a live situation because you cannot apply what you learned.

    the main reason IMO why you do not see TMAs in competitive sports is that most people who do TMAs and teach TMAs these days are not super serious about fighting and trying to be competitive.
    So out of tens of millions (and maybe more) of TCMA practitioners, none are "super serious" about fighting? That's your explanation? Really? They could if they wanted to but none of them really want to?

    As a result they lack they typically lack the physical conditioning needed to compete.
    As fighting skill comes only from fighting, and so if someone isn't in condition to fight, how can they ever develop fighting skill?

    Also, beceause WC is not built as a sport (as is MT, Boxing, BJJ) there are a lack of trainers in TMAs who are experienced in coaching and training in the sporting environment--you can be a bad ass TMA guy yourself, but who says you can be a good teacher/coach/trainer?
    BJJ wasn't "built" as a sport. The sporting aspect was developed by the Gracies to further the development of BJJ. There is a lesson there. One, I'm sure, that will go over most people's heads.

    Because BJJ, boxing, etc. have competition as a major part of their training this also does two things:

    1. Creates a market and financial incentive which then creates a larger number of coaches
    2. Creates a quality control system where bad coaches are weeded out
    3. Allows competition to create goals for people who then train harder to achieve those goals

    If there was a WC fight league, we wouldnt have so many discussions about tan sao this fook sao that. There wouldn't be any abstract theoretical discussions about triangles and rotational axises and hip girdles in these forums. Nothing about what root is and what it isn't. Do you hold the fist tight? Do you hold it loose? Is it loose but then tight? Hendrick would not have a place to say anything and confuse us all.
    You're right, but we don't need a WCK fight league. Fighting venues already exist.

    WC is simple. WC power generation is simple. you would just see what works and what does not

    IMO these days people make up these theories to try to justify what they learned instead of using real fighting experience to justify it.

    this is @$$ backwards.
    That's exactly right.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Yes, there is a lot of "knowledge" being dispensed. Too bad it is mostly nonsense.



    The trouble is that you say that -- and so do many others -- but you're not doing it. Nor do you understand the "principle" behind realistic training: that you develop any skill only by doing that skill (under the same conditions).




    I don't bash WCK -- I bash all the bullsh1t associated with it. More than 90% of what you hear on this forum is absolute nonsense, it is bullsh1t.



    That'a a very good question. Now apply that to yourself. You say your WCK is working, right? OK, go visit a MMA school or a MT school or a boxing gym and spar -- see how well your WCK works. Are you able to do what you train to do as you train to do it?



    If you won't do that, ask yourself why not.

    If you aren't doing that then you aren't really training to fight.



    If you enjoy something then by all means keep doing it. Some people love aikido. Some love Scottish dance. Others, like me and the republicans, like watching faux lesbian sex! It's all good.

    But when people start talking about using their WCK in fighting, how to effectively train, etc. then it goes beyond mere enjoyment. Results now matter.





    I like WCK because of its focus on contact/attached fighting.
    Hold on a second. Let me get this straight because that's a pretty bold assumption. How do you know I"m not doing realistic training and I don't understand it the principles behind this? What you are saying is pretty easy to understand. I have been training for only 4 years. After about a year or so I began hard sparring with people. Not only from my class but outside of it as well. I've been to MMA gyms to spar. I have friends who are trained as well that I spar with. I also on a regular basis get into hard sparring with weapons. So don't make assumptions based on no knowledge about me and what I do in my training.

    With regards to me going to a MMA gym. Already done! And yes I have found things that simply don't work. However I also reconize that some of that is due to my own limitations and lack of skill. I have no ground game as I have never studied it. I get very lost and beaten pretty quick when I hit the mat. But IMO wing chun does not prepare you that well for such a situation. But standing toe to toe I do pretty well. I wouldn't have done pretty well 4 years ago so to me my training is working.

    Of course results matter. That's pretty easy to say. Without results we have no real gauge to see whether what we are learning is effective or not. But to say that the majority of the art is crap is a pretty bold statement. I'm no rocket scientist but the very fact that the art has been around this long proves to me that there is value there. The question is can you make it work for you. I guess your answer is no. My answer is yes.
    Last edited by kungfublow; 04-01-2010 at 07:31 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    So why do you train wing chun? What attracted you to it originally? What keeps you coming back week after week to train?
    I don't really know if it's worth answering due to the tireless responses you have already received that just seem to go off into a world of their own!

    A perfectly positive thread, asking some very simple and inquisitive questions that's already sliding off subject. AGAIN!

    And this is only post #11!
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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    Well it was worth a try. Maybe we should just change every thread to a " you aren't training realistically" thread.

    I think every Martial art has some value. The way people fight has not changed over the years. The things that were effective then will be effective now. But it's all up to the person to make those thing work. I think if you aren't willing to put in the time with some of the deeper arts then you won't see their value. For me personally the more I learn the more I like it and the more useful it becomes. But you have to spend the time and spend that time wisely. Yes T training in a realistic fashion is one of the most important things you can do. But don't throw out all the art for the sake of the martial. For many of us the journey is just as important as the destination.

  13. #13
    Here's a suggestion: do like I did and put Terence Niehoff on IGNORE.

    So aside from some posts from other people on this thread that actually quoted and responded to some of T's windbag rhetoric (and I just glimpsed slightly at what he said that they quoted)...

    aside from just a little of that...

    this has been a very positive thread so far for me.

  14. #14
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    I don't practice anything any more. In fact, I quite practicing years ago. Practice don't always make perfect, but it will get you to the point where you are as good as you are going to get. I reached that point a long time ago. I am 65 years old, and I entered into training at age 10 years. It was at home, and I was youngest of 8 kids. We all trained, but were obviously at different levels. We trained 6 days a week too. Until I left home that is. I have never trained in any other gung fu but actually did train for years in Japanese Jujitsu, Which I have not trained for years either. When I was a young man there were boxing gyms around everywhere, but MMA was not something you would hear of. I never felt, and still don't feel a need to go to some MMA gym to see how well my stuff works. I got into a lot of fights, and my stuff seemed to work ok. I got paid to fight and it still seemed to work ok.
    There was this night club with a gambling hall in back, and they had a large back yard with a ring. They paid people $25 to fight, and another $25 if they won. I had an older brother that would fight 3 or 4 times every Saturday night. His stuff seemed to work ok. I even made a few bucks back then and it worked for me. That is what it was for, to be able to fight against another person with an advantage over them. You could still get that a$$ whipped. As I got older I took jobs that were sort of dependent upon my fighting skills, and it still seemed to work ok for me even though I did not spend all my free time in a kwoon or MMA gym.
    All a Martial Art is designed for is to give you an advantage over the average person. How far you wish to take it depends upon the degree of fighting skills of the people you want to fight with. If they are really skilled fighters, then you really need to be skilled as well. Stands to reason. We train mostly against people with the same training, which makes it more difficult, but against someone that just starts swinging you will usually have some sort of advantage. With the exception of my brothers and sisters I have never had to fight another Wing Chun trained person. Most of the people I have had to fight were just plain old fist fighters. But that doesn't mean that they were easy. Not by a long shot. I have fought boxers, wrestlers, and lots of kickers. I had occasion to use both skill sets, depending upon the situation. Most cases I was not allowed to beat on the patrons. Only in absolute self defense was I allowed to really harm someone. Unless of course I was contracted to simply beat someone up real bad. The money was all good.
    Point is, you go hanging around outside MMA gyms looking for fights you are going to take an a$$ whipping now and then. That counts for everyone. Nothing is 100%, never has been. Same thing could happen on any given street corner too. In every fight someone gets whipped, and the best man don't always win since neither one of them have to be worth a crap at fighting. That includes MMA fighters too.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Yes, they are and I ahve explained why.
    your explanation like most of your reasoning is illogical and erroneous. fighters do more to train than just fight every moment. TCMA are not the only ones to have training besides direct sparring.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    So out of tens of millions (and maybe more) of TCMA practitioners, none are "super serious" about fighting? That's your explanation? Really? They could if they wanted to but none of them really want to?
    You're doing the weaselly lawyer thing again.

    Not saying that they have the skills and physical conditioning but choose not to. Its that they dont have the skills or physical conditioning because they don't want to. Most don't have the will or motivation to do what it takes to become a professional fighter. The few that do have the motivation will have a hard time finding a TCMA trainer who has the knowledge and experience to help them.

    My point is that the lack of TCMA presence in sport fighting has nothing to do with chi sao or wooden dummy training being useless. It has to do with the lack of a market for serious TCMA training.

    Yes, most TCMA people these days are not willing to devote themselves to competitive sport fighting. TCMA doesnt even offer competitive sport fighting. People who are drawn to sport fighitng will go to boxing or MMA and thus will (surprise surprise) go to a boxing or MMA trainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    As fighting skill comes only from fighting, and so if someone isn't in condition to fight, how can they ever develop fighting skill?
    are you saying you are agreeing with me? that was my point

    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    BJJ wasn't "built" as a sport. The sporting aspect was developed by the Gracies to further the development of BJJ. There is a lesson there.
    exactly. these days in the US, knowing MA is not as important as it used to be when you needed it for protection in China (no guns, no police, remote areas etc). nowadays MAs are for sport. thats the primary motivation. if BJJ had no sporting aspect and it was restricted for a while (as MA was in China after communism) then motivation for serious training would diminish and as a result the market for trainers would diminish and you would have sh!tty BJJ teachers everywhere and you would have a hard time finding someone to train properly or effectively.

    You're right, but we don't need a WCK fight league. Fighting venues already exist.
    i disagree. right now a WCK league would help more because there is a big WC "brain drain" right now.

    there is a large lack of competent wing chun teachers and practitioners and too many people posting on the internet thinking that they learned everything about WC 100% in and out and fighting and training in general because they studied briefly with some guy who wrote a book on WC

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