Ng chan wing chun

[k gledhill]

Moshe, he would use his structure, go with the flow, wound up like a spring by the incoming force and hit when the spring released. I've felt it first hand many times. You don't even feel him and you essentially hit yourself because the amount of force you apply to him comes back to you. He connects to your center of gravity but doesn't allow you to feel your own.

um, no .........your in a classic 'chi-sao warrior' battle, assuming he will feel guys trying to hit him.

[MOSHE]

Moshe, he would use his structure, go with the flow, wound up like a spring by the incoming force and hit when the spring released. I've felt it first hand many times. You don't even feel him and you essentially hit yourself because the amount of force you apply to him comes back to you. He connects to your center of gravity but doesn't allow you to feel your own.

That's true,he was oftenly doing a kind of shi sao with his students and they cannot reach to hit him,losing their own power

This was what he has shown to them

Now try to figure what he could do if he wanted to strike for real
How could be his strength

Take in consideration what I name the masculine way to attack( sha wah son)
And all the contractions that you are involving in your muscles ,stance, angles of the arms ... All this will be the weak points of this system regarding the feminine way
Equal to amazing support for leverage

Plus what he never shown was the ability to develop a penetrating force
This one in not mysterious . Just a way of training
But impossible to reach without a certain training whose part of it (that we don't want to disclose .just to be clear) is for the basic , the way to perform the Taos and the way to hit the dummy
And concerning the dummy, there not a single version of wing Chun ,that is using it correctly

Look the picture of my dummy , the space between the two arms in 11cm,and they are not moving, so try to figure how to put out strength when you hit between, like tiam to tan

[nasmedicine]

when we drink water , we always think of the source.

From every cup that empties into another, a little is left in the previous cup as Sifu to student, etc...

By the time we get to our cup, we ask the source and how many cups has this water passed from ?

Moshe is simply saying he is drinking nearer the source. I would keep an empty cup and allow it to accept any ideas , you never know what might drop in.

You might find that your Sifu filled his cup with some of his own ideas to compensate for a half full/half empty cup, for $'s, dvd series, book series, uniforms, grading fee's instructor courses, mandatory certification, license fee's, membership, contracts, or any other means to put his proverbial "hand into your pocket" and thats on the first day joining .

Well said and I agree

[nasmedicine]

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Of course Moshe is entitled to his views. For the record- I don't do Ng Chan wing chun but respect him as an early dedicated student of Ip man.I said that early on.

I for one merely differed from Moshe's view that Ng Chan's is the only "original Ip man wing chun".
Of course Ip man is the real McCoy and Ng Chan has flow to his movements. Moshe mentioned that his line puts most of their weight on the back leg- I don't do it that way but understand good people including Leung Shun who did or do and make/made it work.
Wish we could get past the nuances in language barriers and past the put downs of others and get more of a sense of Ng Chan's wing chun with statements he may have made himself on the details of his wing chun.

Ng Chan is known as one of Ip man's direct students and a clear statement of his approach in the manner that Peterson has done for WSL could be a contribution to a reasonably cumulative understanding of Ip Man's wing chun..

Kung fu practitioners and teachers evolve. I don't think Ip man was an exception- he evolved as a teacher compared to his early days as a practitoner.


The thread should die if we only have put downs- but again, a clear mini essay or more on Ng Chan's own wing chun would be a positive thing.

joy chaudhuri

I understand. All I was saying with my earlier comment was that we should not let his words ruffle our feathers. I know what I know and it works for me. You know what you know and that works for you. Moshe knows what he knows and that works for him. He is passionate about what he knows and is simply sharing that enthusiasm. If i got upset every time someone claimed said their wing chun was superior I would be in a hypertensive crisis constantly. Also, I have never touched hands with Moshe or anyone from his clan so I take what he said with a grain of salt and an open ear.

[WC1277]

um, no .........your in a classic 'chi-sao warrior' battle, assuming he will feel guys trying to hit him.

Um, no ..........

[k gledhill]

Um, no ..........

.."Now try to figure what he could do if he wanted to strike for real
How could be his strength.."

[Vajramusti]

To Moshe- not to KG

Moshe- why the mystery- why not answer some of your own questions- would be easier for communication.?

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

when we drink water , we always think of the source.

From every cup that empties into another, a little is left in the previous cup as Sifu to student, etc...

By the time we get to our cup, we ask the source and how many cups has this water passed from ?

I've never bought the "transmission" model of learning, viz. that you only have one teacher and can't possibly ever be as good as he or his teacher's teacher because of communication issues.

In every other sphere of life, people seek info from as many sources as possible, and even experiment and work things out for themselves. TCMA claims to be different, but not for any good reason.

[Frost]

I've never bought the "transmission" model of learning, viz. that you only have one teacher and can't possibly ever be as good as he or his teacher's teacher because of communication issues.

In every other sphere of life, people seek info from as many sources as possible, and even experiment and work things out for themselves. TCMA claims to be different, but not for any good reason.

stop making sense...it has no place on this thread

[EternalSpring]

In every other sphere of life, people seek info from as many sources as possible, and even experiment and work things out for themselves. TCMA claims to be different, but not for any good reason.

Well I dont think it's really a TCMA thing in theory but rather something a good amount of TCMA people do which is against the TCMA mentality (kinda like how lots of people who claim a religion barely follow it) , when we look at it, so many TCMAs are the result of information being shared between different masters or practitioners so the whole "hermit" mentality seems even sillier than it is. I think the whole close mindedness of some people is just one of two extremes that we see in martial arts. On one extreme we have the people you mentioned who think they have the only right way and that it does not need to be tested in application, and then on the other end of the spectrum there are those that are so quick to accept any teaching that they heard and so they end up having no faith in their technique and end up limiting what they mainly train in.

Ex of the first extreme: A person who doesn't spar or test his techniques but trains them alone thinking that the first time punch he ever lands will shatter his opponent to pieces.

Ex. of second extreme: Guy (lets say he's a boxer) who spars a person of another art, gets defeated, and then assumes that his style sucks or has flaws (when in reality it could just be his own understanding that is flawed) and thus is quick to listen to anything he hears from a worthy opponent.

I think the reason many TCMA people end up like hermits in their training is because we often stress that people shouldn't try to learn/mix other styles/systems until they're sure they have a good foundation in one art. Otherwise you can have students that have only trained for a few weeks who go out and fight, get beat, and then try to supplement their training with other styles when in reality they never had a good foundation to begin with and often may be using techniques from other sources to deal with situations using methods that they already would have had in the first place if they had trained to have a good foundation in their primary art.

Thats just my opinion though, im sure there are many views on it, i just like to throw my 2c because I'm bored and also because it's kung fu/martial arts discussion, my favorite kind lol.

[GlennR]

I've never bought the "transmission" model of learning, viz. that you only have one teacher and can't possibly ever be as good as he or his teacher's teacher because of communication issues.

In every other sphere of life, people seek info from as many sources as possible, and even experiment and work things out for themselves. TCMA claims to be different, but not for any good reason.

Well im not so sure thats its all TCMA that espouses the single source way.

We've only got to look at Yip Man, Leung jan and Sum Nung (to name a few) to see that they learnt of mutiple sources.

So why do the current generations seem so obsessed with single source way?

[Runlikehell]

Well im not so sure thats its all TCMA that espouses the single source way.

We've only got to look at Yip Man, Leung jan and Sum Nung (to name a few) to see that they learnt of mutiple sources.

So why do the current generations seem so obsessed with single source way?

It may have been brought up earlier in the thread but I think it's to hold up the 'you only have the one Sifu' idea. I think they're just trying to show respect to their (possibly first) Sifu and his lineage.

As you said though, look at some of these individuals:

Yip Man was taught by Chan Wah Shun, Ng Jung So. According to some, he also learned from Leung Bik. Fung Wah (earlier student of Leung Jan) and/or Yuen Kay San have also been mentioned as inspirations for YM (or friends of his) coming up with the Leung Bik story. Depends on what you choose to believe I suppose.

I think with that, the learning may have been considered informal, or just swapping techniques among peers. Depending on where you look, it may have been much more.

Sum Nung learned from Cheung Bo, later from Yuen Kay San. Who himself learned from Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching. Who themselves learned from Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam. Sum, Yuen, Fok and Fung credited both their teachers though. It has also been suggested that Dai Fa Min Kam learned from Wong Wah Bo himself.

Go back to Leung Jan, who was taught by Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo. He credited both of them.

That's information that most people know. Could it have been that the idea of crediting your first Sifu became mainstream (at least in Wing Chun circles) somewhere between the time of the Opera and Yip Man?

[anerlich]

Why not credit all your Sifus?

[Runlikehell]

It may have been an issue of equal credit. Maybe it was felt that to credit more than one, people would assume the bulk of one's teaching came from one and the other just fine tuned their learning.

I can't imagine what it was like though. There could have been any number of variables.

[MOSHE]

Hello

I need to clarify about the posts above
For sure , if I would have said in this forum that I have been so impressed about the ability and efficiency of ng chan or ki ping pun that this drive me to conclude that their wing Chun is the best, it would have been an subjective and undefendable position.
And I could understand that some of you could be shocked

So I remind you the fact that regarding the situation of the wing Chun today ,my sifu decided to disclose the real story of wing Chun ,known by very few

Leung bik did exist
Ng chan always quoted to ki ping pun about what received ip man from Leung bik

Ng chan like ip man didn't have to modify anything in this system

And the fact that We know how this wing Chun was transfered and to who , is the sole justification to present like the original wing Chun
(see precedents posts)
So even ,among the students of ng chan ,only three people could be qualified as knowing this wing Chun
This mean that is not because you have the name of this sifu or an older one attached to a lineage that's automatically the followers will know the original wing Chun

This is the reason , we are all doing different wing Chun.

Regards