Ng chan wing chun

[MOSHE]

Do you modify your bon ,tan ,wu sao (your own wc structure in general) regarding the body shape ,size ,weight of your training partner ?

[Graham H]

Using a blindfold in chi sao is an excellent way to develop tactile sensitivity. Sensitivity can of course be developed without using a blindfold but practising without the use of sight accelerates the process as it forces the practitioner to focus on what they can feel rather than what they can see. What you are feeling for is dependent upon what the lineage in question emphasises. Personally I feel for gaps to the centre and the direction and magnitude of force being applied. Being able to capture information from senses other than sight and react to that information quickly is a learned skill and one that all seasoned fighters possess. Chi sao is a Wing Chun exercise designed to develop that skill and using a blindfold is an easy way to accelerate the process. Of course it is also very useful for showing off in demonstrations but that is not its primary purpose.

Sensitivity to what? Feel what? Feeling for gaps in the center? Capturing information from senses? More and more "sticky" pointless nonsense!!!!!

Do me a favour mate! You try that stuff on somebody who is wading into hand foot and head or with a weapon and all your crazy blindfolded "sensitivity" arm glue wing chun will go bang out of the window! You need to get real! You want to ask me why I have that idea? Because I used to have that approach to my Wing Chun training but I know from real fights it gets you nowhere so I changed my thinking. In the panic you will revert back to type if you are not prepared. Humans are programmed that way unless we can find an effective way to deal with it and ultimately our own fears. This takes hard training and sparring and even then we can't guarantee the outcome of a real street fight.

All blindfolded Chi Sau does is accelerate the amount of BS that gets thrown around in Wing Chun and why a lot of other fighting systems laugh at it!!!


The End!

[Graham H]

Do you modify your bon ,tan ,wu sao (your own wc structure in general) regarding the body shape ,size ,weight of your training partner ?

Modify? FFS! Bong Sau involves an explosive rotation of the elbow. It does enough to open the way for the punch. How can you quantify that? Tan Sau is a punching concept in my system and a punch is f***ing punch!

Of course things will change dependent on different body types but wtf? Do you want a work instruction for it?

[Frost]

Sensitivity to what? Feel what? Feeling for gaps in the center? Capturing information from senses? More and more "sticky" pointless nonsense!!!!!

Do me a favour mate! You try that stuff on somebody who is wading into hand foot and head or with a weapon and all your crazy blindfolded "sensitivity" arm glue wing chun will go bang out of the window! You need to get real! You want to ask me why I have that idea? Because I used to have that approach to my Wing Chun training but I know from real fights it gets you nowhere so I changed my thinking. In the panic you will revert back to type if you are not prepared. Humans are programmed that way unless we can find an effective way to deal with it and ultimately our own fears. This takes hard training and sparring and even then we can't guarantee the outcome of a real street fight.

All blindfolded Chi Sau does is accelerate the amount of BS that gets thrown around in Wing Chun and why a lot of other fighting systems laugh at it!!!


The End!

you know im starting to warm to graham

[wingchunIan]

you know im starting to warm to graham

Interesting that you take that view. I hadn't seen his post because he is on my ignore list. I thought you did grappling? surely you embrace the idea of tactile sensitivity?
Every grappling practitioner I've ever come across has understood and been well versed in the sensitivity concept. Sensitivity and tactile responses work pretty well for boxers, thai boxers, MMA fighters, BJJ and Judo players and worked okay for me when I did MT. The difference for grapplers is that normally positioning means that they can't physically see what is happening and so they learn naturally to rely on their sense of touch to determine when to transition, which direction to move in, what technique to attempt etc. Boxers and MT fighters learn more through sparring and clinch work, classic example being if you feel the low right hook of your opponent connect with your ribcage / abs / arm then you throw a left hook counter because it means his right hand must be out and equally you brace for / take action to avoid the left hand that he is probably going to throw next. You don't stop and peer from behind your guard / lift your head to have a look at what he is doing because you don't have time. The response is a reaction based off of the tactile information received.
Tactile reactions are something that fighters normally develop with experience and chi sau is IMO simply wing chun's tool for accelerating that process. Some practitioners struggle to develop reactions and using a blindfold is one way to help to them to notice and in turn pay attention to the information received at the point of contact.
Even in the basic bong lap drill that certain folks are so fond of posting clips of on here the practitioner is learning to feel for the point at which the wrist is pulled, to feel for when their punch is stopped, feel for when the partner changes action

[Graham H]

If the amount of pressure you're taking from an opponent exceeds the level of skill you have to deal with it, you will revert back to bad habits of instinct. Yes, chi-sau is about hitting the opponent, but it is inevitable that a clash of limbs may impede a clear line of attack. Sensitivity in chi-sau shows us the path of least resistance to clear the line and open it for attack. If we are wrong about that or don't develop the right sensitivity, we'll end up resisting. When we resist that provides an opposing force for the opponent to make use of their strength. If the opponent is stronger than us, we'll lose. If we don't resist, by using sensitivity to their energy, then we offer no opposing force and take strength out of the equation. Then only a fighter with more skill will be able to beat us.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the whole. What I'm saying is that people over indulge in the practice and take it to many areas where it becomes ineffective.

Did I read that you are a WSLVT practitioner? I just posted a clip of him demonstrating blindfolded chi-sau skill. I don't think anyone could laugh at him or doubt his skill in fighting. He was also very much about weeding out the BS prevalent in martial arts, but it appears he disagreed with your point of view on this topic.

Are you saying I was laughing at him? What are you on about? WSL is not with us anymore. If he were who knows what his ideas would be? What is the point of talking about it? Just because he has a blindfold on and I practice the WSL method means that I can't have my own opinion???? I think for myself and as I never met WSL he has my utmost respect and that is it!

[Graham H]

I hadn't seen his post because he is on my ignore list.

That makes me happy........oh you can't see that!

[Frost]

Interesting that you take that view. I hadn't seen his post because he is on my ignore list. I thought you did grappling? surely you embrace the idea of tactile sensitivity?
Every grappling practitioner I've ever come across has understood and been well versed in the sensitivity concept. Sensitivity and tactile responses work pretty well for boxers, thai boxers, MMA fighters, BJJ and Judo players and worked okay for me when I did MT. The difference for grapplers is that normally positioning means that they can't physically see what is happening and so they learn naturally to rely on their sense of touch to determine when to transition, which direction to move in, what technique to attempt etc. Boxers and MT fighters learn more through sparring and clinch work, classic example being if you feel the low right hook of your opponent connect with your ribcage / abs / arm then you throw a left hook counter because it means his right hand must be out and equally you brace for / take action to avoid the left hand that he is probably going to throw next. You don't stop and peer from behind your guard / lift your head to have a look at what he is doing because you don't have time. The response is a reaction based off of the tactile information received.
Tactile reactions are something that fighters normally develop with experience and chi sau is IMO simply wing chun's tool for accelerating that process. Some practitioners struggle to develop reactions and using a blindfold is one way to help to them to notice and in turn pay attention to the information received at the point of contact.
Even in the basic bong lap drill that certain folks are so fond of posting clips of on here the practitioner is learning to feel for the point at which the wrist is pulled, to feel for when their punch is stopped, feel for when the partner changes action

Its more to do with his writing style than what he actually says lol Although I do find it strange that a system meant to be so simple and straight forward can be seen so differently by so many people

Although I am a grappler and MMA guy I also train both long arm (hung gar CLF) and short arm (bakmei, lau gar and southern dragon) Chinese systems for years so I understand both bridging and non bridging arts, id argue that wing chuns chi sau doesn’t build the same tactile reflexes you see in grappling or thai boxing because the start position and a lot of the hand positions and attacks used you simply wont see in a fight in the west and use the reflexes and the responses you are learning simply are not that useful especially if there is no real fear of geting hit, adreline and high heart rate can play havoc with tactile responses, personally id just prefer to clinch work and grapple at that range and work my southern stuff into that platform.

I like Grahams just hit them approach, I think that a lot of times southern short hand arts get too caught up in the minute detail and in training platforms and methods which sometimes distract from that simple goal of hitting the target as hard as you can

[LFJ]

Are you saying I was laughing at him? What are you on about? WSL is not with us anymore. If he were who knows what his ideas would be? What is the point of talking about it? Just because he has a blindfold on and I practice the WSL method means that I can't have my own opinion???? I think for myself and as I never met WSL he has my utmost respect and that is it!

No, you said "all blindfolded chi-sau does is accelerate the BS that gets thrown around in Wing Chun and why a lot of other fighting systems laugh at it".

Well, here we have WSL, a man who was known for being very straightforward in regards to what is practical and what is BS, performing blindfolded chi-sau. So clearly he had another opinion on chi-sau not relying on sight, and I don't think anyone could have laughed at him.

To be sure though, there are plenty of clowns who do BS stuff with the blindfold, but that's another thing.

[Ali. R]

Well f""k me over a barrel of whiskey!

Please don’t take this personal; just using your own words.

I think you talk a lot of rubbish. My opinion of course. Don't take it personally.

Just like your but looks, after bending over that barrel of whiskey you so proudly talked about, and it seems that you got your brain pierced in the process.

Just my opinion of course.

Take care,

[wingchunIan]

Its more to do with his writing style than what he actually says lol Although I do find it strange that a system meant to be so simple and straight forward can be seen so differently by so many people

Although I am a grappler and MMA guy I also train both long arm (hung gar CLF) and short arm (bakmei, lau gar and southern dragon) Chinese systems for years so I understand both bridging and non bridging arts, id argue that wing chuns chi sau doesn’t build the same tactile reflexes you see in grappling or thai boxing because the start position and a lot of the hand positions and attacks used you simply wont see in a fight in the west and use the reflexes and the responses you are learning simply are not that useful especially if there is no real fear of geting hit, adreline and high heart rate can play havoc with tactile responses, personally id just prefer to clinch work and grapple at that range and work my southern stuff into that platform.

I like Grahams just hit them approach, I think that a lot of times southern short hand arts get too caught up in the minute detail and in training platforms and methods which sometimes distract from that simple goal of hitting the target as hard as you can

I agree that many get lost down a rabbit hole with chi sau and end up training unrealistic responses to unrealistic stimuli but if done properly with the end goal in mind you should be learning how to differentiate between and respond to pushing, pulling, grabbing and arms getting in the way of your strikes at the correct range for Wing Chun striking. Not learning how to defend bong lap, or double pak sau etc etc
Again I would say that when practising chi sau at the correct range and as experience increases there is a very real chance of getting hit and this in turn helping to continually diminish the natural tendancy to tense up.
I completely agree with the notion that we should always be seeking to hit but I also believe that chi sau provides a tool for training the what next scenario ie when your shot is stopped or it lands and doesn't finish the job which many arts seem to miss (and is equally missing from chi sao when the compliant partner simply gives up every time the senior student / teacher etc gets through with a punch or cluster of punches.)

[jimhalliwell]

I agree that many get lost down a rabbit hole with chi sau and end up training unrealistic responses to unrealistic stimuli but if done properly with the end goal in mind you should be learning how to differentiate between and respond to pushing, pulling, grabbing and arms getting in the way of your strikes at the correct range for Wing Chun striking. Not learning how to defend bong lap, or double pak sau etc etc
Again I would say that when practising chi sau at the correct range and as experience increases there is a very real chance of getting hit and this in turn helping to continually diminish the natural tendancy to tense up.
I completely agree with the notion that we should always be seeking to hit but I also believe that chi sau provides a tool for training the what next scenario ie when your shot is stopped or it lands and doesn't finish the job which many arts seem to miss (and is equally missing from chi sao when the compliant partner simply gives up every time the senior student / teacher etc gets through with a punch or cluster of punches.)

Hi

is this approach then a good example of what you mean? I think you may even be on here somewhere??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1tEFNgYoOs

Jim

[anerlich]

Every grappling practitioner I've ever come across has understood and been well versed in the sensitivity concept. Sensitivity and tactile responses work pretty well for boxers, thai boxers, MMA fighters, BJJ and Judo players and worked okay for me when I did MT. The difference for grapplers is that normally positioning means that they can't physically see what is happening and so they learn naturally to rely on their sense of touch to determine when to transition, which direction to move in, what technique to attempt etc. Boxers and MT fighters learn more through sparring and clinch work, classic example being if you feel the low right hook of your opponent connect with your ribcage / abs / arm then you throw a left hook counter because it means his right hand must be out and equally you brace for / take action to avoid the left hand that he is probably going to throw next. You don't stop and peer from behind your guard / lift your head to have a look at what he is doing because you don't have time. The response is a reaction based off of the tactile information received.
Tactile reactions are something that fighters normally develop with experience and chi sau is IMO simply wing chun's tool for accelerating that process. Some practitioners struggle to develop reactions and using a blindfold is one way to help to them to notice and in turn pay attention to the information received at the point of contact.

All of this is true.

However, it is noteworthy in my view that most of the arts other than WC do not have specialised "sensitivity" drills like chi sao to develop these attributes. It all comes from normal training and sparring.

You can drill or positional spar by reducing the extent or number of allowable techniques in rolling, standup wrestling, randori, etc., or using only one or no arms, etc., but IMO this has little in common with chi sao, no matter whose opinion you subscribe to about what chi sao is for.

Grappling with your eyes closed can be helpful to a certain extent (I find it helps me relax and the lack of visual stimuli sometimes helps me concentrate better) but claims to its value, or that of any other "drill" are never taken to the ridiculous level of claims that some make as to the value of chi sao, blindfolded or otherwise.

I occasionally train BJJ with a purple belt who is legally blind. He does quite well in competition, though the rules are normally changed at tournaments so he can start the match with grips on his opponent.

Basically any dynamic activity requires proprioceptive or touch sensitivity. But to suggest WC has some sort of inside track or that chi sao turns one into some sort of hypersensitive superhuman is IMO grossly inaccurate.

[Frost]

Hi

is this approach then a good example of what you mean? I think you may even be on here somewhere??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1tEFNgYoOs

Jim

And here we go, I for one would be interested in Ians response because that clip is I think from his lineage, and the chi sao didn’t to me look like a) there was any real change of anyone actually getting hit during it b) and real follow up and finishing and learning how to deal with a situation where your first strike didn’t end the confrontation, they just seemed to restart over and over with my real leg movment or change of distance between, now I understand it was just a demonstration but really it was not at all like you typed about Ian and for me demonstrates exactly what is wrong with chi sao.

As for the multiple attacker bit, my lord that was bad, very very bad the attackers all waited patently for the defender to finish before launching their singular telegraphed attackes and politly stopping to get beat up and falling over when hit

[Graham H]

No, you said "all blindfolded chi-sau does is accelerate the BS that gets thrown around in Wing Chun and why a lot of other fighting systems laugh at it".

Well, here we have WSL, a man who was known for being very straightforward in regards to what is practical and what is BS, performing blindfolded chi-sau. So clearly he had another opinion on chi-sau not relying on sight, and I don't think anyone could have laughed at him.

To be sure though, there are plenty of clowns who do BS stuff with the blindfold, but that's another thing.

Yes and I stand by that comment. The world is not full of WSL's is it? If you want to me to re-phrase it I will say that 99.9% of Wing Chun accelerates the BS!

I have been exposed to varying ideas within the WSL system. I prefer one over the rest and it suits me that way.