Ng chan wing chun

[jesper]

There is a funny secret about such type of "secrets": They go both ways.

• If I share with you some "lesson" but make you swear not to discuss what you learned with anyone else (and you keep your word), how do you know who else I may have shared it with? There is only one correct answer to this question: You don't know.
  
  
• Even if I shared with you a list of others who learned the same "lesson", how do you verify they are the only ones without breaking your word? There is only one correct answer to this question: You can't verify it.
  
  
• Even if, for the sake of argument, I shared with you a 100% accurate list of those who learned the same "lesson" as of that moment, how would you be able to determine no one else after you and they learned the same "lesson" after you? There is only one correct answer to this question: You have no way to determine it.

What is your explanation for why I know of no less than SIX of Yip Man's Hong Kong students and TWO of Yip Man's China students who claim the exact same thing you state: only they learned it all - including Leung Bik - and no one else did?

dark magic ?

[Wayfaring]

I don't understand this post. Gatekeeper? No such person in Ip man wing chun.... period.

Does this mean there is no keymaster too?

I am disappoint.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

[k gledhill]

This is why I'm asking Are you actually saying that Kwok Fu then Ng Chan are the formal Gatekeepers of Ip Man Wing Chun, or Leung Biks system?

I'm a little confused.



So Ng Chan 'claimed it' for himself? Again, I'm confused!

I know a student of Lun Gai, who was close to Kwok Fu but they're more commonly known in the UK as Foshan Wing Chun and have links to my own Sigung through people such as Wai Po Tang and Simon Lau.

But I have never heard them mentioned when discussing anything about who inherited Ip Mans art, just an acknowledgement that they had an earlier version of Ip Mans art!

Have a look at some photos here and tell me who you recognise... (please!)

http://lungai-foshan-wingchun.co.uk/aboutus.aspx

Lun Kai Bil Gee Clip [ not so secret anymore } in an interview, Lun Kai mentions YM did not teach him knives only pole. But there are clips of him doing some drills with knives...

Baat cham do Clip Lun Kai

[Vajramusti]

This is why I'm asking Are you actually saying that Kwok Fu then Ng Chan are the formal Gatekeepers of Ip Man Wing Chun, or Leung Biks system?

I'm a little confused.



So Ng Chan 'claimed it' for himself? Again, I'm confused!

http://lungai-foshan-wingchun.co.uk/aboutus.aspx

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why confused? There is no gatekeeper in Ip Man wing chun. I agree with Moshe on this. Not a matter of being told- do I have to be told that on many days in Arizona-there isn't a cloud in the sky?I can look and see for myself. Read Ip Ching's comments on his father in the VTAA site. IM did not claim that he was the gatekeeper of wing chun. I don't know how this gate keeping business in wing chun got started. Moshe claimed that Ng Chan got real wing chun from Ip man. I don't doubt it after reading Moshe's sifus article which I enjoyed.I just disagree that on any claim that Ng Chan was the only one who got it.
So there is some self promotion in Moshe's sifu's essay...and that is not new.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

Are you actually saying that Kwok Fu then Ng Chan are the formal Gatekeepers of Ip Man Wing Chun, or Leung Biks system?

yes



So Ng Chan 'claimed it' for himself?

no, we have revealed it

I know a student of Lun Gai, who was close to Kwok Fu but they're more commonly known in the UK as Foshan Wing Chun sha wah son


But I have never heard them mentioned when discussing anything about who inherited Ip Mans art,

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]kwok fu taught the leung bik system to 5 students apparently,some are dead and the other ones stopped wing chun

he was teaching the leung bik to others students,look at his son ,he is doing shs wah son[/COLOR]

Have a look at some photos here and tell me who you recognise... (please!)
[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]] dont see kwok fu,and i dont know the others[/COLOR]

[MOSHE]

Tom Kagan; Yesterday at 08:50 PM.


What is your explanation for why I know of no less than SIX of Yip Man's Hong Kong students and TWO of Yip Man's China students who claim the exact same thing you state: only they learned it all - including Leung Bik - and no one else did?[/QUOTE]


thats simply not possible ,if it was the case ,they couldnt speak about it to you

dont forget ; we wrote that my sifu was living with ng chan during several years
and under which conditions he learned
plus ng chan did mention to him the leung bik teaching to ip man

we can not exclude that one or two others learned this leung bik system,but for sure they didnt put it in the street

its not for me obsessional to prove what we revealed in this thread.
it could be endless to comment on the comments

the best will be to practise one day together and you will understand how wing chun can be more direct and more efficient

i met a lot of lineage ,and if i would have found more efficient ,i will have no hesitated to swap
the few guys ,im teaching are coming from other lineage

regards

[Xiao3 Meng4]

[Tom Kagan]

So there is some self promotion in Moshe's sifu's essay...and that is not new.

While that might be true for some, I've encountered too many similar things in many different circumstances - from the local to the the national level - with respect to the Chinese; I can't dismiss it so easily.

In my opinion, there is more to this behavior than the ego of self promotion. I believe it to be a cultural phenomenon. The best western frame of reference I can suggest in order for others to relate is a sibling stating his or her parents liked only himself or herself the best. But, instead of the petty bickering among siblings such a claim would cause, it appears to be a sincere and somewhat unique methodology to show honor to one's elders. Again, from the western frame of reference, it would be as if *all* siblings were 100% correct in making such a claim, but without the inherent cognitive dissonance a westerner would expect from such a circumstance.

thats simply not possible ,if it was the case ,they couldnt speak about it to you

Just so it is clear where we stand with each other, please clarify whether you just called me a liar. If not, please clarify what you meant.

dont forget ; we wrote that my sifu was living with ng chan during several years
and under which conditions le learned
plus ng chan did mention to him the leung bik teaching to ip man

Again, irrelevant. Without establishing your credentials, all you did was make an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

we can not exclude that one or two others learned this leung bik

Finally, you reveal you still contain reasonable skepticism. I don't know if you realized the full extent of what you were previously saying without it: Yip Man was a lousy teacher. (Yes, the proverbial "putting all your eggs in one basket" is a mark of a lousy Sifu. What if that student got hit by a bus? Hundreds of years of knowledge ends there.)

its not for me obsessional to prove what we revealed in this thread.
it could be endless to comment on the comments

No, it is for you to prove. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. The funny thing about providing such proof is that it puts an end to the endless comments. But if you can't prove it, you shouldn't be restating the claim with the conviction of truthfulness. To still hold the conviction of truthfulness - even to yourself - in such a circumstance is to move from the real realm of trust and mindful observation into a realm of faith and blind loyalty.

the best will be to practise one day together and you will understand how wing chun can be more direct and more efficient

LOL. Okay, I accept.

If you really want to prove such things, I have a proposal for you: I will make the necessary arrangements to create a proper quorum where you can prove your claims. As I see it, the relevant claims you made (which also would be consequential to such a quorum) are as follows:

• You are demonstrably better Ving Tsun technician than your peers on the quorum.
  
• The technical aspects of your skill are consequentially different than your peers on the quorum.
  
• Your methodology of learning such skill cannot be found in most other methodology and/or other methodology cannot develop the same skill as easily and/or as correctly.
  
• You go beyond the Ving Tsun realm and are, in fact, a good Martial Artist.

You know, I have to admit: Part of why I'm proposing this is pure silly amusement. (I guess I haven't done something quite stupid enough with my time, money, and effort in a while.) But don't get me wrong: I am not proposing a challenge or a gauntlet (though this can be arranged too if you want). I am being sincere: I am proposing a free exchange of ideas with your peers. Moy Yat had respect for Ng Chan. As Moy Yat's student, I consider it sort of a duty to help give you the opportunity to prove such claims if I am able. Believe it or not, I want you to succeed.

So what do you say, Moshe? Up for some genuine ol' fashioned Martial fun in the Big Apple? If so, then contact me privately via this website's private messaging system (this link) Send me a telephone number and the times when you can be reached so we can start working out details together.

[k gledhill]

While that might be true for some, I've encountered too many similar things in many different circumstances - from the local to the the national level - with respect to the Chinese; I can't dismiss it so easily.

In my opinion, there is more to this behavior than the ego of self promotion. I believe it to be a cultural phenomenon. The best western frame of reference I can suggest in order for others to relate is a sibling stating his or her parents liked only himself or herself the best. But, instead of the petty bickering among siblings such a claim would cause, it appears to be a sincere and somewhat unique methodology to show honor to one's elders. Again, from the western frame of reference, it would be as if *all* siblings were 100% correct in making such a claim, but without the inherent cognitive dissonance a westerner would expect from such a circumstance.



Just so it is clear where we stand with each other, please clarify whether you just called me a liar. If not, please clarify what you meant.



Again, irrelevant. Without establishing your credentials, all you did was make an appeal to authority logical fallacy.



Finally, you reveal you still contain reasonable skepticism. I don't know if you realized the full extent of what you were previously saying without it: Yip Man was a lousy teacher. (Yes, the proverbial "putting all your eggs in one basket" is a mark of a lousy Sifu. What if that student got hit by a bus? Hundreds of years of knowledge ends there.)



No, it is for you to prove. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. The funny thing about providing such proof is that it puts an end to the endless comments. But if you can't prove it, you shouldn't be restating the claim with the conviction of truthfulness. To still hold the conviction of truthfulness - even to yourself - in such a circumstance is to move from the real realm of trust and mindful observation into a realm of faith and blind loyalty.



LOL. Okay, I accept.

If you really want to prove such things, I have a proposal for you: I will make the necessary arrangements to create a proper quorum where you can prove your claims. As I see it, the relevant claims you made (which also would be consequential to such a quorum) are as follows:

• You are demonstrably better Ving Tsun technician than your peers on the quorum.
  
• The technical aspects of your skill are consequentially different than your peers on the quorum.
  
• Your methodology of learning such skill cannot be found in most other methodology and/or other methodology cannot develop the same skill as easily and/or as correctly.
  
• You go beyond the Ving Tsun realm and are, in fact, a good Martial Artist.

You know, I have to admit: Part of why I'm proposing this is pure silly amusement. (I guess I haven't done something quite stupid enough with my time, money, and effort in a while.) But don't get me wrong: I am not proposing a challenge or a gauntlet (though this can be arranged too if you want). I am being sincere: I am proposing a free exchange of ideas with your peers. Moy Yat had respect for Ng Chan. As Moy Yat's student, I consider it sort of a duty to help give you the opportunity to prove such claims if I am able. Believe it or not, I want you to succeed.

So what do you say, Moshe? Up for some genuine ol' fashioned Martial fun in the Big Apple? If so, then contact me privately via this website's private messaging system (this link) Send me a telephone number and the times when you can be reached so we can start working out details together.

Wait your turn

[Tom Kagan]

Wait your turn

Hehe.

You just want to meet him, but what I'm saying is he wants to meet me.

[Wayfaring]

Wait your turn

So now we need a gatekeeper to the gatekeeper?

Wonders never cease around here

[lance]

Its not possible for anybody to claim they have "real" ving tsun. What happened in Yip Man's time is open to speculation. We were not there so its a pointless discussion. What we do know was that Yip Man was a reluctant teacher and his own personal life would also have had an influence.
Yip Man did not have many versions of Wing Chun. He had many friends and many visitors as did his students after him. What I look for are simularites between lineages and whether there is still depth and consistencies the further you go through the system. This is the only way we can tell who had most contact with Yip Man. There is also the fact that certain people such as WSL evolved the system further based on tried and tested methods.
It has been said that Yip Man prefered to teach students that were more willing and able. I understand this because I feel the same. If people dont train hard and dont train consistently then why bother unloading the information on them? Some people get it and some people dont. I have stsudents that if they went out and opened a school today, as many of Yip Mans students did, then they would be teaching a incopmplete system. If they has the audacity to pull the wool over peoples eyes and say they know the whole system based on a lust for money then you can see the problems that this would cause further down the line.

To prove this hypthesis even more then I know for a fact that this has happened within WSL's students and also Philipp Bayers students.

So whether you are Ng Chan, William Cheung, Ho Kam Ming, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Chun, Ip Ching, Wong Shun Leung etc etc etc means nothing! The proof is in the pudding. You must go and see first hand and not put too much faith in articles and video footage.

GH

GH , you ' re right no one can claim that they have the authentic WC , the reason why I said that was because moshe had mentioned it , so I looked at Ng Chan ' s video clips on his Sil Lum Tao set , although the bridge hands are in different arrangements , the form still looks like the same way I practice mines .

Although , there are other WC lineages out there you still can ' t tell if they ' re authentic WC or not . Even for yourself you probably learned all the WC your sifu ,
himself could teach you right ? So if we can ' t call our WC authentic WC , we can call our WC lineage of WC our sifus WC right ? For example Wong Shun Leung Sifu lineage right ? Articles and video footage may seem BS but it still gives us an idea of what the style or system is all about . If joy did ' nt post the video clippings of the Ng Chan WC form , would you have known what it looks like ?
So lucky thing joy posted it . So are you calling Douglas Wong Sifu who wrote the book on Wing Chun a liar ? Douglas Wong Sifu wrote the book on the Deceptive hands of WC , he learned from Robert Wong Sifu , who in turn learned it from Ng
Chan ' s assistant teacher .

GH , my topic reply posts was a reply to JOY ' s topic posts no you , if I want to ask you something , then I ' ll reply to your topic thread posts , okay . You ' re a WC sifu I can respect that . My 2 - friends are both WC Sifus too Thomas and Henry Zane , they both learned from ( Au Keong ) stanley au sifu , and au sifu learned from Ip Man during the time he was still living yet . I ' m not a sifu yet , but I train with this 2 - sifus privately . And Yeung Sifu learned from Wong Long Ching Sifu in HK , and wong sifu himself is the cousin of Wong Shun Leung sifu .
And ofcoarse nothing special , but we ' re from Hawaii .


So as you have said forget about Original or Autthentic WC , we shall call it our sifus version of WC . Why do you roll over Ip Man ' s other students like Wong Shun Leung , William Cheung , Ho Kam Ming and other people for ? They ' re the people who put WC to the tests . Wong Shun sifu fought people of other styles kung fu himself , he did lose fights too , due to the fact that Ip Man ' s techniques did ' nt work for him , so he modified it in a way that it worked for him , and
that ' s how he became good . Even Cheung sifu changed his chum kiu form too .
And also fought on the streets like what Wong shun leung Sifu did too . You have students right ? Because , unless you out your WC skills in a more friendly sparring sessions , you won ' t know if it ' ll work or not right ? This people who you rolled over all have tested out their WC skills , but for Ho Kam Ming sifu , his student Fong sifu is pretty good .

Now GH , I ' m not saying that you can ' t do what this people have done , but all
I ' m really saying is fighting is just the other half of what martial arts is all about . Anybody , can learn WC sets , but if they can defend themselves with it , then what the use of learning it and practicing yet . I spar with my 2 - WC sifus , we experiement with different kinds of combat arts . Since people , of different combat arts like to try out WC people .

[MOSHE]

In my opinion, there is more to this behavior than the ego of self promotion. I believe it to be a cultural phenomenon.

no that at all,we just informed (as well in a chinese post not translated) that WC has gone too far away from the original,and of course even from the sha wah son version
so we hinted things in order to help people to see more clearly in the teaching they are receiving



Just so it is clear where we stand with each other, please clarify whether you just called me a liar. If not, please clarify what you meant.

i have just meant that the persons telling you that were exegarating,and had perhaps a commercial purpose


Again, irrelevant. Without establishing your credentials

i over-estimated the ability of abstraction and extrapolation of some to analyse these posts the right way. plus this is also due to my way to formulate it in english

, all you did was make an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]it wasnot the purpose, the truth has to come from somewere ,at least and i dont ask to say thanks for what was disclosed . but people want to have a defensive stance and not being open mind ,i dont mind
[/COLOR]

Finally, you reveal you still contain reasonable skepticism. I don't know if you realized the full extent of what you were previously saying without it: Yip Man was a lousy teacher.

t[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]hats not the word to use,and this way to teach is part of the wing chun system and even part of the chinese culture in martial arts. one ,two perhaps three students to become depositaries of the style..
its too dangerous to open the more direct technics to too much people
[/COLOR]
(Yes, the proverbial "putting all your eggs in one basket" is a mark of a lousy Sifu. What if that student got hit by a bus? Hundreds of years of knowledge ends there.)

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]thats what happened to kwok fu students apparenly[/COLOR]



[LIST]
[*]You are demonstrably better Ving Tsun technician than your peers on the quorum.
[*]The technical aspects of your skill are consequentially different than your peers on the quorum.
[*]Your methodology of learning such skill cannot be found in most other methodology and/or other methodology cannot develop the same skill as easily and/or as correctly.
[*]You go beyond the Ving Tsun realm and are, in fact, a good Martial Artist[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"] i prefer to say the technics ,im using are goods[/COLOR]

You know, I have to admit: Part of why I'm proposing this is pure silly amusement. (I guess I haven't done something quite stupid enough with my time, money, and effort in a while.) But don't get me wrong: I am not proposing a challenge or a gauntlet (though this can be arranged too if you want). I am being sincere: I am proposing a free exchange of ideas with your peers. Moy Yat had respect for Ng Chan. As Moy Yat's student, I consider it sort of a duty to help give you the opportunity to prove such claims if I am able. Believe it or not, I want you to succeed.

So what do you say, Moshe? Up for some genuine ol' fashioned Martial fun in the Big Apple? If so, then contact me privately via this website's private messaging system (this link) Send me a telephone number and the times when you can be reached so we can start working out details together.

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]when ,i will come to NY ,we will meet first friendly together.
no need for a quorum,i dont want to stress anything, i dont play the game of the provocation ,i just inform and i can perform too .
i dont even not understand this negative aspect ,for people to feel frustrated ,if they are hearing something different that they are used too

[/COLOR]
but you are right , like i was writing ,to look at it for real will be more interesting

regards

[LoneTiger108]

Would I be right in assuming this is similar to Ng Chans style??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSQ_ubkcdfA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe7y4...el_video_title