Why is your Wing Chun useless in the open range?

[Pacman]

I thought I'd start this topic instead of hijacking another thread

this question is for those who feel WC cannot handle long range. please explain why you feel that way.

I am not an expert in other's WC, but from what I have seen some of the fundamental things that could lead to a disadvantage at an open range are

1. fighting in a completely squared off pigeon toed stance, body upright, flatfooted. this probably comes from an abuse of the rooting concept and people want to fight like this. this leads to a lack of mobility, lateral and forward, that will put you at a great disadvantage. hard to get in close when you cannot move easily.

2. not turning the body when punching. again keeping that squared off stance. this leads to a lack of reach.

[YouKnowWho]

not turning the body when punching.

This is a tradeoff and not weakness. If you don't turn your body and remain 90 degree angle between your arms and your chest, you can land your "chain punches" many times on your opponent's face before he knows what has just happened. If you turn your body, you may land a much more powerful punch but just one punch and not many punches.

I don't know which experience is more scary, your opponent knocks you out by one punch, or your opponent hits your face 7 times and you can't do anything about it.

[Matrix]

1. fighting in a completely squared off pigeon toed stance. this probably comes from an abuse of the rooting concept and people want to fight like this. this leads to a lack of mobility, lateral and forward, that will put you at a great disadvantage. hard to get in close when you cannot move easily.

Who fights like this? Nobody I know.

[Phil Redmond]

Who fights like this? Nobody I know.

Thanks Matix. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Phil Redmond]

I thought I'd start this topic instead of hijacking another thread

I am not an expert in other's WC, but from what I have seen some of the fundamental things that could lead to a disadvantage at an open range are

1. fighting in a completely squared off pigeon toed stance. this probably comes from an abuse of the rooting concept and people want to fight like this. this leads to a lack of mobility, lateral and forward, that will put you at a great disadvantage. hard to get in close when you cannot move easily.

2. not turning the body when punching. again keeping that squared off stance. this leads to a lack of reach.

TWC NEVER fights square on for the reasons you mentioned and more.

[SAAMAG]

I can see what you’re saying Pacman. Though I don’t consider either thing a weakness per say. I look at it this way: if someone is looking to hit me he’s got to come close enough to me (and cross the bridge) to do so. Once an attack enters my threat envelope I can use wing chun or any other fighting strategy I want. Because of this, the YJKYM stance wouldn’t be any more a detriment at that range relative to any other range because it won’t be used until the person is close enough to be a threat.

The other thing too, is while in the past many have touched on the ranges of hand-to-hand combat, there really is one range—that is the range by which an attack can reach you and you can be hurt. Once there a person is a threat and should be dealt with. The other ranges that people might discuss (e.g. the kicking, punching, trapping, clinching, and ground fighting) are merely subsets of the overall fighting envelope.

The other idea about punching, I think I see what you’re saying…and I agree that the word trade-off is a better descriptor. But is it the ideal one?

Being balanced and rooted in your techniques will enable one to drive from the ground, whereby the hip is always an inherent component. The wing chun punch to me does use the body—but in a different way than say boxing. Because a major component of body unity deals with mating the shoulders to the hips, the hands to the feet, and the elbows to the knees—wing chun punches should be able to achieve decent power through the (short) movement through full coordination of the joints and movement. I know it’s not the same as my cross (see long drawn out thread on this) but it still has effectiveness.

[YungChun]

Who fights like this? Nobody I know.

LOL...

Love it.. Nice and direct Bill.. Couldn't have said it better..

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Using karate (generic) as an example.. They don't have any ChiSao, nor many fancy drills, most of the forms are passed over, meaning they don't know what any of it has to do with fighting. . And they just fight.. They also don't complain that "their art is lacking in X".. They just do it.

VT folks are too spoiled and depend too much on specific "instructions" instead of just expressing and doing it.

Moreover, it shows the lack of sparring instruction and too much improper focus on the forms and drills.. And of course if you stand there in YJKYM like a statue you should be gently lead off the floor and sent to remedial sparring class.

[k gledhill]

terence does ...

[SAAMAG]

Who fights like this? Nobody I know.

I don't think he means standing like this the whole time, but rather starting like this and shooting into a biu ma on attack. Like LT / EBMAS / Wang Zhi Peng and some many others.

I stand that way starting, and use huen ma, chor ma, side facing stances, and shooting / stepping stances where need be. I move with the opponent simply put.

Bas Rutten also advocates a squared stance, although with one foot behind and one foot in front (more like a higher elevation front stance). No one just stands in YJKYM the whole time of course.

[Bully]

I train in the pigeon toe stance, as does most others.

I fight in a fighting stance, one foot forward, toes slightly turned in (if I remember). I am forward facing, shoulders square. It does go to **** sometimes due to me not being very good. But I would never ever fight in the training stance.

Weird thread.

[Frost]

I train in the pigeon toe stance, as does most others.

I fight in a fighting stance, one foot forward, toes slightly turned in (if I remember). I am forward facing, shoulders square. It does go to **** sometimes due to me not being very good. But I would never ever fight in the training stance.

Weird thread.

so the question would be why have a training stance that is different from your fighting stance?

[k gledhill]

I train in the pigeon toe stance, as does most others.

I fight in a fighting stance, one foot forward, toes slightly turned in (if I remember). I am forward facing, shoulders square. It does go to **** sometimes due to me not being very good. But I would never ever fight in the training stance.

Weird thread.

we fight from side stances...lead legs are for a committed line of entry...iow side stances allow shifting pivoting any direction ...in a face off for positions....
I was taught to use a lead leg to start before...doesnt work for tactical movement, back and forth....once your committed, we use lead leg or cutting, side entry, like dummy attack movement...lead legs enter from the sides...cutting attacking lines move left to right or vv across the face while cycling attack/defensive actions..in rotation...

our objective isnt to go into the guys strengths...central to both his arms wailing in on us...but for a commitment from them to a side...usually one sided fighters present one leading weaker side...telegraphing attacks also allows us to intuitively maneuver for counters....we try to turn the opponent or cut off their ability to face us.

[Matrix]

Thanks Matix. You took the words right out of my mouth.

No problem Phil. It's amazing how many people think WC people fight this way. Too much misinformation out there.

Bill

[Matrix]

LOL...

Love it.. Nice and direct Bill.. Couldn't have said it better.. .

Hey Jim,
It's the WC way. I saw the opening and took it.

Bill

[Matrix]

so the question would be why have a training stance that is different from your fighting stance?

It's a beginner's training stance. What some people refer to as training wheels. Like a child, a beginner must learn to stand, then to walk and finally to run. Some folks I've seen on the internet have not learned to walk and yet they want to race (fight).