Why is your Wing Chun useless in the open range?

[Matrix]

2. not turning the body when punching. again keeping that squared off stance. this leads to a lack of reach.

I just want to say that if you want to reach something you do it with your footwork, not with your arms and over-rotating your body. How much you remain square or rotate is up to you to decide, but know that you are always making trade offs.
By reaching too much with your upper body you are giving up balance and it takes longer to bring your other hand into play. If you are using simultaneous "techniques" such as a tan-da or lap da, or whatever, you will need to fairly square, but you need to turn the upper body too. The question is, how much?

[SAAMAG]

he'll come close enough to hit you, but that doesn't mean you can hit him. you could either be limited by things such as reach or mobility. he could move laterally while you are stuck like a potted plant and tag

Standing in your defined fighting stance with guard up will do nothing to create or futher establish an advantage over someone who isn't even in a range to hurt you. In fact it would put you at a disadvantage given that now the other guys knows you know something and may take extra precaution on come in less haphazardly.

Though I understand what you're saying with reach--it is possible for someone to have greater reach, but when you know he's close enough you react. You don't sit there waiting till he's close enough for you to hit him persay. When there's a threat, you move. That could be stepping back or moving in such a way that he's no longer in your threat envelope, it could be stepping one foot back with the same "hey lets calm down" hand positioning (in prep for something more to occur), it could be you punching him before he punches you. No one is saying that you are to stay in one spot and not move at all.

The point was that you shouldn't worry about a threat until its a threat. The shoulda'-woulda-coulda' hypothetical is an endless one and irrelevent to the point being made.

[Pacman]

this is a little theoretical and not what im trying to talk about.

im saying that by keeping your body completely square WHILE you punch you are limiting your reach (and power but thats another story). 99% of other people do not keep their body square while punching. we all know that reach is an important factor in hand to hand fighting on the outside. its undeniable. so by limiting your reach you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, or limiting your advantage if you already have longer arms, when on the outside.

if you are so close that both people can hit each other it does not matter.

lots of people are replying to this thread like "WTF?". thats good, because the question was "why is your wing chun useless...?". so if its not useless at long range to you, then you should think "WTF?" but there is no need to reply to this thread.

i want to hear from people who think you have to mix WC with other styles to be capable on the outside.

The point was that you shouldn't worry about a threat until its a threat. The shoulda'-woulda-coulda' hypothetical is an endless one and irrelevent to the point being made.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"im saying that by keeping your body completely square WHILE you punch you are limiting your reach (and power but thats another story). 99% of other people do not keep their body square while punching. we all know that reach is an important factor in hand to hand fighting on the outside. its undeniable. so by limiting your reach you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, or limiting your advantage if you already have longer arms, when on the outside." (Pacman)

***EXACTLY.
.................................

"if you are so close that both people can hit each other it does not matter." (Pacman)

***WHICH pre-supposes that you got to that range without getting picked off. And from the longer range, while perhaps not all wing chun fighters are completely square - virtually all wing chun fighters are still pretty close to being square - and this therefore limits reach much more than the kinds of punches (and corresponding footwork) that a boxer might use from that longer range.
.............................

"i want to hear from people who think you have to mix WC with other styles to be capable on the outside." (Pacman)

***NOT EXACTLY what I've been saying, but close. You can be very capable from the outside (long range) with just wing chun against a lot of people - but if you're up against someone with some serious boxing skills, for example, (and especially if he has longer arms than you to begin with)...

you can find yourself in trouble, because you're using a short tool against a long one in exactly the range (distance) where longer tools are the most effective.

Now I realize that many wing chun people will say that from the longer range they will use angling, cutting, timing, etc. - but I'm very sceptical about this compensating when up against a truly skilled striker, ie.- boxer type who knows how to use his reach, footwork, combinations, feints, head movement, etc...FROM THAT RANGE.

[Vajramusti]

this is a little theoretical and not what im trying to talk about.
((???Unsure and Curious-What are you talking about?))

im saying that by keeping your body completely square WHILE you punch you are limiting your reach (and power but thats another story).


((Keeping your wing chun structure square bodied in ygkym is for development of the vertical structure and provides the platform for development of the paths of wing chun hands and the fundamentals of power. Later in application with development of wing chun turning and stepping you further enhancement of power. There is plenty of usable power in good wing
structure and dynamics.With the turns and the stepping you can have usable reach with power.Sorry- your description does not correspond with what I do. ))

99% of other people do not keep their body square while punching. we all know that reach is an important factor in hand to hand fighting on the outside. its undeniable. so by limiting your reach you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, or limiting your advantage if you already have longer arms, when on the outside.

((With footwork, stepping, turning and above all-timing learned-gasp- via chi sao-no real problem.
Most folks are taller than me and they have more surface for being hit. Outside, inside---no problem if wing chun is taught and trained well))

if you are so close that both people can hit each other it does not matter.

((At close quarters- a good wc person should be able to both deflect and attack as well))

lots of people are replying to this thread like "WTF?". thats good, because the question was "why is your wing chun useless...?". so if its not useless at long range to you, then you should think "WTF?" but there is no need to reply to this thread.

i want to hear from people who think you have to mix WC with other styles to be capable on the outside.

((OK- I am not one of those people- but do not begrudge or berate people who think they need to. My comments are in brackets above))

joy chaudhuri

[Pacman]

victor i couldnt agree with what you said more regarding the assumption of being able to get in close without getting clobbered first and with what you said about using angles, footwork, etc. can help, but having shorter arms is still a very huge disadvantage

in YKS WC, when we train our punches we turn our body completely 90 degrees. some videos of kulo WC they seem to emphasize that a lot too. the YM lineage seems to be different. now before everyone goes nuts, i fully acknowledge im just basing this on the vids i see on youtube.

either they dont turn at all, or they turn on their heels which means they are really just using their waste to turn instead of using their legs which is more powerful.

all these ideas about triangles, what the centerline actually is, and pelvic girdles IMO is just nonsense. WC attacking theory and power generation theory is simple. this other stuff is an attempt to justify what you were taught

"im saying that by keeping your body completely square WHILE you punch you are limiting your reach (and power but thats another story). 99% of other people do not keep their body square while punching. we all know that reach is an important factor in hand to hand fighting on the outside. its undeniable. so by limiting your reach you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, or limiting your advantage if you already have longer arms, when on the outside." (Pacman)

***EXACTLY.
.................................

"if you are so close that both people can hit each other it does not matter." (Pacman)

***WHICH pre-supposes that you got to that range without getting picked off. And from the longer range, while perhaps not all wing chun fighters are completely square - virtually all wing chun fighters are still pretty close to being square - and this therefore limits reach much more than the kinds of punches (and corresponding footwork) that a boxer might use from that longer range.
.............................

"i want to hear from people who think you have to mix WC with other styles to be capable on the outside." (Pacman)

***NOT EXACTLY what I've been saying, but close. You can be very capable from the outside (long range) with just wing chun against a lot of people - but if you're up against someone with some serious boxing skills, for example, (and especially if he has longer arms than you to begin with)...

you can find yourself in trouble, because you're using a short tool against a long one in exactly the range (distance) where longer tools are the most effective.

Now I realize that many wing chun people will say that from the longer range they will use angling, cutting, timing, etc. - but I'm very sceptical about this compensating when up against a truly skilled striker, ie.- boxer type who knows how to use his reach, footwork, combinations, feints, head movement, etc...FROM THAT RANGE.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Pacman;1003556]

in YKS WC, when we train our punches we turn our body completely 90 degrees. some videos of kulo WC they seem to emphasize that a lot too. the YM lineage seems to be different. now before everyone goes nuts, i fully acknowledge im just basing this on the vids i see on youtube.

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I see where you are coming from. Nice to see your acknowledgment of the u tube as the source of your generalizations. Ip Man lineages are too diverse to make a straw man based on u tube.
Not a slam.

joy chaudhuri

[Pacman]

thanks. my point was not about lineage, but that this occurs a lot in the WC universe.

victor acknowledges this as well so apparently it occurs outside the realm of youtube as well

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1003569]

in YKS WC, when we train our punches we turn our body completely 90 degrees. some videos of kulo WC they seem to emphasize that a lot too. the YM lineage seems to be different. now before everyone goes nuts, i fully acknowledge im just basing this on the vids i see on youtube.

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I see where you are coming from. Nice to see your acknowledgment of the u tube as the source of your generalizations. Ip Man lineages are too diverse to make a straw man based on u tube.
Not a slam.

joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

im saying that by keeping your body completely square WHILE you punch you are limiting your reach (and power but thats another story). 99% of other people do not keep their body square while punching. we all know that reach is an important factor in hand to hand fighting on the outside. its undeniable. so by limiting your reach you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, or limiting your advantage if you already have longer arms, when on the outside.

I added the bold to your comment for emphasis. If this is all known, and undeniable then there's no point in having this dicussion. The tea cup is already full.

[Pacman]

I added the bold to your comment for emphasis. If this is all known, and undeniable then there's no point in having this dicussion. The tea cup is already full.

not necessarily. i didnt say reach is the only factor for long range fighting, and so you could argue that other things can overcome it

im just saying that reach is one undeniable advantage for long range.

the other IME is footwork

[sihing]

not necessarily. i didnt say reach is the only factor for long range fighting, and so you could argue that other things can overcome it

im just saying that reach is one undeniable advantage for long range.

the other IME is footwork

At long range, lets say foot to foot range you need to use slightly different mechanics, one would not be square facing exactly. But realize, that ranges/ positions as described are like pictures, they are moments in time, in a split second one can be a bit further in (knee to knee range) or further away as well. We can't crystalize fights like pictures, you have to know that things change very fast and inches can make a difference.

Longer range techniques and tactics work, no doubt and no one is saying that they don't. Add them to your repitore if you like, the key thing is is it necessary. This question is answered based on your needs and intention. The thing with longer range strikes, your sideways a bit when you launch them, the draw back is that there is no ability to use your other side at the sametime, also you mechanics are such that you are reaching, you only have power in the end of the strike, you are also very committed to your strikes at longer range, and you have less ability to control you opponent while striking, therefore not being able to adequately keep the longer range possible. Generally longer range fighters use footwork to keep the range they want, easy to do in a ring (sport) with no obstructions, harder to do in a confined, unfamiliar area(street) with chairs, tables, people and other things in the way.

In WC the general strategy is to eat your opponents space. Why is this so? So they can't deliver their tools, or generate power from their structure, we jam them. This requires us to square up. If your sideways in anyway that close in you'll be turned away from the action, giving your back to your opponent. For this to work you have to 1) have good stability/root with the ground to use it as a power source, but also be able to adapt and move slightly to adjust for changes, 2)a flexible framework/structure within the body that is connected, strong and powerful (not from muscular strength but from natural body unity), 3) contact reflexes, your eyes won't perceive things quickly from this close in, your feeling reflex provides a faster response to pressure, 4)a focused line of attack/forward pressure upon your opponents center axis/spine, this takes his balance away, 5)power from your legs into your strikes, here there is no need for rotating or twisting torque actions to generate power in strikes, and allows for little windup in our striking, and 6) a spring like reaction in your limbs and body, so where ever the gaps are in his defences your strikes go thru them (lat sau jik chung concept), this is associated with points #3&4. Those are just a few attributes we develop from the WC curriculum to allow us to use our tools at the range we need them. In all reality we won't look much different from some styles of boxing, we don't dance on our feet, but stay closer to the ground, and use less rounder attacking actions, although there is nothing stopping us from using some (jow sau for example), and some other strikes from chum kiu and dummy work.

As someone said earlier (Vankuen I think), in reality there's only two ranges, non contact and contact, either you can engage or you can allow your opponent to do so, either way the system works in each case as we are aggressive when the contact is set and try not to allow a loss of it when that happens.

Nothing is guaranteed or promised, no Martial Arts system can do that, it is still up to the individual to be able to pull it off. The skills are not the easiest to obtain, but are easy to bring forth in your expression of combat once you have them.

James

[Pacman]

i agree with a lot of what you said.

i think the reason a WC practitioner needs to recognize the ability to fight in long range, and distinguish further between just contact and non-contact, is that to use the more advanced WC skills such as sticky hands you need to get close.

so you can practice sticky hands for years and be a master of it, but how are you going to set up an opponent and get into that close position to even use sticky hands?

its like being an expert in every jujitsu lock and choke, but not being able to take a person down.

a WC fighter needs to be able to have long range fighting skills to be able to penetrate, to bridge the gap, etc.

[grasshopper 2.0]

yes i would agree with this. it's easy to say and 'do" by reaching or not squaring up a la the kickboxer for example. But what happens when you face a guy who is 12 inches taller? or how longer arms? all of a sudden your 'reaching" is useless.

footwork on the other hand, doesn't play this reaching game. entry, timing and cutting in with footwork is the way to go, although probably ridiculously scary and is difficult to do, which is why 94.542% of the people out there don't do it.

WC's strength is in being able to use both hands, independently and at the same time, which means, to an extent, we do square up against the opponent. Of course, in the thick of things, yes, many will still incorporate some degree of reaching, twisting, etc. but our strength is in squaring up.

let me also state that i don't imagine my self squaring up, pigeon toed, with man sao/wu sao per se. but, i think the functions of the wing chun weapons have to be there and those functions are based on a foundation where our center-line is facing the attacker, meaning that we would work off this "squared off" positioning.

I just want to say that if you want to reach something you do it with your footwork, not with your arms and over-rotating your body. How much you remain square or rotate is up to you to decide, but know that you are always making trade offs.
By reaching too much with your upper body you are giving up balance and it takes longer to bring your other hand into play. If you are using simultaneous "techniques" such as a tan-da or lap da, or whatever, you will need to fairly square, but you need to turn the upper body too. The question is, how much?

[Vajramusti]

a WC fighter needs to be able to have long range fighting skills to be able to penetrate, to bridge the gap, etc.

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Why of course- and it is an important part of good wing chun training.
So- what's the beef?

joy chaudhuri

[Pacman]

if you read this forum you would see i was responding to some people who were downplaying the need for long range fighting

also, the main point of this thread is to talk to people who think that WC does not have the tools to fight in long range

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Why of course- and it is an important part of good wing chun training.
So- what's the beef?

joy chaudhuri