Why is your Wing Chun useless in the open range?

[Pacman]

even if you had to fight a guy who naturally had a longer reach than you, would limiting your own reach further help, hurt, or make no difference?

yes footwork is very very important, but again would limiting your reach help, hurt, or make no difference in the situation?

yes i would agree with this. it's easy to say and 'do" by reaching or not squaring up a la the kickboxer for example. But what happens when you face a guy who is 12 inches taller? or how longer arms? all of a sudden your 'reaching" is useless.

footwork on the other hand, doesn't play this reaching game. entry, timing and cutting in with footwork is the way to go, although probably ridiculously scary and is difficult to do, which is why 94.542% of the people out there don't do it.

WC's strength is in being able to use both hands, independently and at the same time, which means, to an extent, we do square up against the opponent. Of course, in the thick of things, yes, many will still incorporate some degree of reaching, twisting, etc. but our strength is in squaring up.

let me also state that i don't imagine my self squaring up, pigeon toed, with man sao/wu sao per se. but, i think the functions of the wing chun weapons have to be there and those functions are based on a foundation where our center-line is facing the attacker, meaning that we would work off this "squared off" positioning.

[SAAMAG]

footwork on the other hand, doesn't play this reaching game.

Yep. That's also the answer to Pacman's stated problem of getting to the desired range of fighting. Footwork is king, and combined with timing one can learn when and how to enter into the desired range.

FWIW, I think WC blends nicely with MT and Boxing--but does it NEED it? Not so much. I personally like to do it because it seems natural to me, but if I didn't do it I could still apply the wing chun.

There are several strategies and tactics you can use to get to your desired range. One thing that pretty consistently gets results (for me) is to step back on the opponents attacks, do it a couple of times. Once the guy is expecting you to do it again upon attack the 3rd or x time, you move INTO his attack countering simultaneously. Another version of it is to simply step back once after an attack and as the person chases you with a follow up you intercept the attack with your own as they're stepping forward to get into range again.

So its not always about assimilating longer punches but moreso about how your experience in sparring with the system and with various people allows you to learn how to use the style in a way that's best for you.

[YungChun]

I just want to say that if you want to reach something you do it with your footwork, not with your arms and over-rotating your body. How much you remain square or rotate is up to you to decide, but know that you are always making trade offs.
By reaching too much with your upper body you are giving up balance and it takes longer to bring your other hand into play. If you are using simultaneous "techniques" such as a tan-da or lap da, or whatever, you will need to fairly square, but you need to turn the upper body too. The question is, how much?

BINGO!!!!

100% correct......

Managing distance is a game, best done with the legs and feet and brain knowing how and when to use them... Be where you need to be when he thinks you were going to be somewhere else...

By reaching too much with your upper body you are giving up balance and it takes longer to bring your other hand into play.

Which is why turning 90 degrees is highly unusual for VT... Sounds more like Long Fist which is worlds different.. VT wants to use the hands together, this kind of move almost completely eliminates that possibility unless it is for some kind of finishing move.

------------------------------

It's not about the distance.. It's about the time--time to land--start time..

An opponent may *seem* to be out of range, he may not be... There are many factors which will determine time to land, the weapon, the momentum, the mechanics he's using, motion, his physical speed, his position..

I have seen guys get KO'd by an opponent who he *thinks* is out of range.. and he was.. He could not simply reach out and land, but he was able to explode his body AS he fired off his attack in such a way that the time factor was too short for his opponent to *effectively* react to it and sleepy-bye he went. This is seen in many kinds of sport fighting/point fighting, but unlike what some say, those kinds of fighters can pack a lot of power and do major damage when they land..

Range is fleeting, it's almost like an illusion.. The only range that isn't is the closest range--grappling.. All other arts will have their hands full trying to *keep* their range IF the opponent wants to get closer.. This is why VT fills up the center "with all kinds of junk" (power/tools) to limit the ability of the opponent to get any closer than we want.. We have all seen how "easy" it is for grapplers to shoot in and get the take down even against skilled strikers because the striker's range (or any range) is so fleeting...

Closing the range (getting closer) is always easier than keeping range...

Here's a drill..

Have one person hold a bag while the other person tries to kick the bag.. The person holding the bag or shield should keep it pulled right up against his or her body..and start the drill from outside kicking range..

The goal of the person holding the bag is to prevent the partner from kicking the bag while finally closing distance and smothering the kicker..IE finally moving too close for the kicker to kick (to show this the bag holder can push the kicker with the bag once the distance is closed--if you catch them right you can knock them over).. The partner's goal is simply to kick the bag/shield.

Both partners can use any kind of movement he/she wants but the goal is for the bag person to get too close for the partner to kick.. Once inside reset the drill..

Watch how quickly the person holding the bag will learn to close in and smother the kicker, simply by using erratic and deceptive footwork and movement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ranges are for mere mortals !

[TenTigers]

Here's a drill..

Have one person hold a bag while the other person tries to kick the bag.. The person holding the bag or shield should keep it pulled right up against his or her body..and start the drill from outside kicking range..

The goal of the person holding the bag is to prevent the partner from kicking the bag while finally closing distance and smothering the kicker..IE finally moving too close for the kicker to kick (to show this the bag holder can push the kicker with the bag once the distance is closed--if you catch them right you can knock them over).. The partner's goal is simply to kick the bag/shield.

Both partners can use any kind of movement he/she wants but the goal is for the bag person to get too close for the partner to kick.. Once inside reset the drill..

Watch how quickly the person holding the bag will learn to close in and smother the kicker, simply by using erratic and deceptive footwork and movement.

my teacher used to call this,"Check and go," and was taught for use against someone who had a good defensive side kick (or whatever tool used)
We use this drill still.

[Matrix]

yes footwork is very very important, but again would limiting your reach help, hurt, or make no difference in the situation?

You see, your phrasing of the question is leading. You are calling not-reaching (by over-rotation or whatever means) as "limiting". I see it differently, as previously stated.

But of course, you said that "the main point of this thread is to talk to people who think that WC does not have the tools to fight in long range." So, I'll just be quiet.

Peace,
Bill

[Pacman]

You see, your phrasing of the question is leading. You are calling not-reaching (by over-rotation or whatever means) as "limiting". I see it differently, as previously stated.

ok we can stop if you want, its just a discussion not an argument, but i said limiting because by keeping your shoulders square you are limiting your potential reach.

when we train we turn completely 90 degrees so that we learn to relax and make things fluid. this does not mean you must turn 90 degrees at all times and over commit when fighting.

like anything, you learn what is appropriate for the situation.

but your right this thread is not about reach. i was just trying to theorize why some people, like victor, feel that the WC he knows is lacking on the outside. apparently he agrees with this.

i find lots of WC schools make lots of rules based on certain theories. in a way they take the flexible, principle, soft style approach out of wing chun

for example some teach to never fully extend the arms because someone could break it. well sure, but then you have square shoulders, half bent arms for even less reach and at the same time you train yourself to be stiff.

some also teach to keep the upper body upright and lean back a little so that your face is ****her away from your opponent. well sure, but then your fists are then also ****her away from the opponent...and then try hitting a bag while you are upright and leaning back. you have no power and your fighting from falling over!

[YungChun]

The goal of VT is not to land one from way outside...it's to get inside...AND use the hands together, with close timing in order to project power continuously, remove obstructions, issue force, etc..

Bill (matrix) appears to simply be pointing out that the MORE you turn the LONGER it will take you to get both hands in play in order to do what VT does...that is what makes VT, VT--hands working together, energy issuing, balance destruction, etc.

Good fighters will use mobility to manage the range and close that range.. Additionally, there are a myriad of tools available to issue force as that range is closed.

[wtxs]

He11, I thought "open range" meant WCK for cowboys, which is stupid.
You can't ride a horse in yjkym.

A goat, maybe....

That's funny ... but you can't wear cowboy boots, it had to be rubber boots to ride a goat ... or a sheep ...

[LoneTiger108]

this question is for those who feel WC cannot handle long range. please explain why you feel that way.

Then I, for one among others, will stay quiet on this one.

I am not an expert in other's WC, but from what I have seen...

And seeing is believing right?

[Pacman]

no arguments here with what you said.

turning the body definitely definitely has its pros (reach and more power) and its cons (what you articulated below) and the goal of WC is definitely to get inside and do what you said.

i would say that there are different things for different situations. what may be appropriate on the outside might not be for the inside.

but if you can make it work then thats great. this thread got a little sidetracked as I was just hypothesizing why people would say WC has no outside game etc.

The goal of VT is not to land one from way outside...it's to get inside...AND use the hands together, with close timing in order to project power continuously, remove obstructions, issue force, etc..

Bill (matrix) appears to simply be pointing out that the MORE you turn the LONGER it will take you to get both hands in play in order to do what VT does...that is what makes VT, VT--hands working together, energy issuing, balance destruction, etc.

Good fighters will use mobility to manage the range and close that range.. Additionally, there are a myriad of tools available to issue force as that range is closed.

[grasshopper 2.0]

even if you had to fight a guy who naturally had a longer reach than you, would limiting your own reach further help, hurt, or make no difference?

yes footwork is very very important, but again would limiting your reach help, hurt, or make no difference in the situation?

i see your point. the idea i had in mind is that, if by reaching, you're giving up what your body is trained for and what wing chun is designed to do (eg. squaring up), so in essence, we're playing the other persons game.

i guess the same question can be asked: reaching to gain distance against a taller attacker - would that really provide us any more benefit? if by taking away what WC is founded on, don't we put ourselves at even more of a disadvantage?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Squaring up and playing the wing chun game works at close range. So the question is, does wing chun have the tools to get to that place without getting seriously picked off with strikes or kicks, clinched up, or taken down?

Right?

So what do you think about that?

[grasshopper 2.0]

i do believe that squaring up can help you bridge that distance without getting seriously picked off. Of course, there will be some degree of variation to this, but at least the function of 'squaring up" is still intrinsic when there is some reaching or twisting involved..

that said, this is incredibly difficult to do which is why so many resort to not doing it.

just thinking about it now, as kicks/punches come in at those angles (incredibly dangerous no doubt), shifting, wedging, turning has to be there, but the priority of "hitting" has to be number 1 in order for this to work.

[SAAMAG]

Well, if you believe the MMA/Grappler's statistic of 90% of fights going to the ground, then you won't have to worry about being picked off at long range since they're going to come right to you.

Hopefully you'll be able to pick them off before they double leg you and slam you on the ground.