The Finer Points...

[YungChun]

Of how to cheat, chase hands and otherwise, do whatever it takes to "win" or if you have to, even stalemate in ChiSao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVRaSTzUFBE

The only downside being that you are virtually tossing out any useful aspects of the drill..

Talk about the blind leading....

What a load.

Kevin would you mind ripping this to pieces please.. Thx.

[k gledhill]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

[YungChun]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

True... And essentially the entire core focus of the drill is gone.. As a result, all those mesmerized students diligently trying to duplicate that crap, may later wonder why it doesn't translate into functional application, if they try to use it...

Why doesn't ChiSao translate into functional elements? Because some can only can see the drill as a game to win and not the purpose of the drill. Then they invent all kinds of ways to win at a game that has nothing to do with VT..

This guy honestly can't even do ChiSao very well and so appears to like to force stale, useless positions to keep the younger ones confused..

[Tom Kagan]

Jim, please post a url to a video of your ChiSao in a comparable situation so I and others can make a full critique. :/

[Liddel]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

Pretty dissaponting really.

No elbow idea is just the start, even with elbow techs/behaviour firmly grasped and made into an actual applicable skill, if you dont combine it with the horse then
Terrible force against force in parts and lack of horse see him leaning into his partner to literally stuff him. Good against a compliant partner in a demo

I see an inability to utilise Foook Sau as a big problem out there in the VT world, many just do what is seen here and push and also grab using the palm as a touch point and the fingers as leverage for control.
This then makes it extremely difficult to use the ideas and tech taught in Dan Chi Sau.

Ive seen Kwok look much better and smoother in application,(only in net videos though) not sure why hes different here but i never did like stop start demos from anyone anyway.

Amazed at the poor horse, must have been a tired day - i give him the benefit of the doubt

Jim, please post a url to a video of your ChiSao in a comparable situation so I and others can make a full critique. :/

Come on Tom, anyone would be a fool if they thought they could post vids for all to see and not expect critics to surface.

[YungChun]

Pretty disappointing really.

No elbow idea is just the start, even with elbow techs/behaviour firmly grasped and made into an actual applicable skill, if you dont combine it with the horse then
Terrible force against force in parts and lack of horse see him leaning into his partner to literally stuff him. Good against a compliant partner in a demo

I see an inability to utilise Foook Sau as a big problem out there in the VT world, many just do what is seen here and push and also grab using the palm as a touch point and the fingers as leverage for control.
This then makes it extremely difficult to use the ideas and tech taught in Dan Chi Sau.

Good points..

Come on Tom, anyone would be a fool if they thought they could post vids for all to see and not expect critics to surface.

Yeah, how dare I?... LOL

TFB

Putting stuff out there is one thing.. I will eventually post some stuff--means nothing..

There's a big difference in putting stuff out there and calling yourself a "grand master"... These types must be debunked..trying to $ell this 'stuff' as 'advanced' anything is simply wrong--I mean really.

Anyone, who says these "GMs" shouldn't be called on this stuff, okay, let's hear why not..

[k gledhill]

It should make us ask , "what is chi-sao for ?" maybe it would be easier to ask what its not for ....

think of the SLT form, the elbows tightly held inwards to develop a technique for striking.

then why have hands feeling like they are in the vid posted with elbows pulled backwards besides their bodies out and wide etc...? answer they arent meant to. They should be developing an idea from the form, not some abstract hand game for kicks.

The chi-sao drills are intense enough on their own , without inventing hand patty cake

[SAAMAG]

Chi sao is merely one drill in a grander scale of training. What he's doing there isn't promoting the skill that it's meant to promote.

At the same time though...have you ever touched hands with Kwok? Have you ever touched hands with any of Kwok's students? Trashing a vid because of its "relaxed" state of goings-on isn't the same as feeling a person's skill and then critiquing it based on the feel of it.

You also don't know the context of what he's showing, or the intent of what he was illustrating to them. Perhaps he was showing them something that was "incorrect"?? (I don't believe that was the case but the point is we really don't know unless we were there).

Just remember that critiquing is one thing, talking shit is another.

[LoneTiger108]

Just remember that critiquing is one thing, talking shit is another.

One of the best one-liners I've seen this year!

[Tom Kagan]

There's a big difference in putting stuff out there and calling yourself a "grand master"... These types must be debunked..trying to $ell this 'stuff' as 'advanced' anything is simply wrong--I mean really.

Anyone, who says these "GMs" shouldn't be called on this stuff, okay, let's hear why not..

When you make the kind of statements which you in essence did: "That's not the real __ng __un!", the onus is on you to then show what is. Prove his 'stuff' doesn't, as you put it, "translate into functional application, if they try to use it" or that your method to achieve similar results translates much better. The dearth of independently verifiable proof of the 'cause and effect' of the given methods is what means nothing, not whether any of us finally have the stones to put up a video. Without that proof, then yes, as the distinction Vankuen made, you're just talking smack. You failed to call him on anything.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sure, there a bunch of things on that vid that can easily be criticized, but remember this:
Carlson Gracie (RIP) thought enough of Samuel Kwok's wing chun to once do a joint WC/BJJ seminar with him.

And Carlson's student, Vitor Belfort, coincidentally? enough once put a 6 second knockout devastation on no less than Wanderlai Silva with a barrage of straight blast forward attack punches that was the closest thing I've ever seen in professional mma to wing chun - even if his punches were being thrown horizontally and not vertically.

[k gledhill]

Ive met Sam several times and done chi-sao with him...in London. Its preety bad regardless ...nobody to correct you when your a GRAND MASTER ; ) except master of almightyness maybe ? I could be wrong.

[Liddel]

Vic with respect, thats clutching at straws is it not?
Belforts win at ultimate brazil(?) is one of my favorite KOs but is hardly an example of VT, perhaps our straight line strategy at best....

But if we can say that about what we see of Vitor in a video clip, then whos to say anyone cant comment on what we see in the Kwok Clip ?

Carlson Gracie (RIP) thought enough of Samuel Kwok's wing chun to once do a joint WC/BJJ seminar with him.

Thats why i personally had written 'he must have had a bad day' because with your quote above in mind... i expect more from a video featuring him

Rather than us all having a disagreement about this one off example, what are peoples opinion of his horse behaviour, the disconnect i see between hands and feet, loss of elbow stuffing actions and grabbing control rather than Formal Fook Sau use.... Lets focus on the VT not the man...

Am i off base with my comments, thoughts opinions anyone ? (about the VT)

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

I understand the Belfort/wing chun thing is a bit a stretch, but I've always suspected that Carlson saw what he saw from guys like Kwok and had his trainers work it out on their own - the result being Belfort's own version of a chain punch attack. Could be wrong about that, I suppose, but that's what I personally think about the Kwok/Gracie joint seminar affair.

And yeah, I'm not impressed with Kwok's vids (and I've seen a number of them)...but hey, we've all done some real questionable chi sao and wing chun whatnot from time-to-time, haven't we?

As for the "grandmaster" titles (or even the "master" titles) within wing chun - yes, they're waaay over done. I agree.

[k gledhill]

I wasnt impressed with him, no elbow use lots of wild slapping shots ...wide open, first thing I did was simply step in and palm him in the chest...no answer . Felt like he was into ego maintenance more than anything else. ergo if you hit him in chi-sao he would try to retaliate with a wild slap to try to hit you anyway he could for his 'entourage ' to see no idea about why he got hit if you follow me..