Friendly debate on weight distribution in shifting

[edward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDDSVaBXvg

[JPinAZ]

I'd agree with the 50/50 weight distribution as well as not moving your center left/right. I'd also add you don't bounce up and down as well, but it looks like they have that covered.

The shifting the laan sau at 4:20 mark is a bit funky IMO as they are creating a distortion in his facing and between their upper and lower parts. But then, I don't 'shift' too much like this in application anyway.
As I see it, this is just a drill for beginners to understand self CL, maintaining proper whole-body facing and balance control. Typically in application, we pick the feet up when we move, even when shifting/changing the lines, but there are exceptions.

[Pacman]

this is funny. i learned the exact opposite.

i learned to shift 0/100 and the fact that you are moving around the centerline is one of the whole points of that.

[YungChun]

My position on some of this stuff, at least as it relates to the forms... is... That some of the positions and actions in the forms are intended to be extreme.. Some positions test balance, develop strength, or develop a mechanic, it may serve to get you familiar with an undesirable position or condition so you can get out of it or even better use it to your advantage..

So IOW as far as what the forms may have you do, it may not be the preferred action, position or it may be extreme to develop an idea.. This doesn't mean it's wrong, or represent what you should do all the time (preferred positions or actions) or even by choice.. Context is everything..and much of the actions we see in the forms are abstractions of ideas, positions and tools.

[imperialtaichi]

Shifting differently for different purpose.

Sometimes 50/50 for pure rotation, sometimes 30/70 to dissolve an attack, sometimes 80/20 to rotate the strike into the opponent. 0/100 momentarily for mobility.

Moving up and down? Not so much "bouncing" but almost like "falling" through the fist/elbow into the opponent to maximize utilization of the body mass.

In general, I see rules as guides for training beginners. Ultimately, all rules are to be broken. Fight free of inhibitions.

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

That is one of the other ways of turning. Leung Sheun, William Cheung... are some of the other ways of doing it.
Learning the balancing in chum kiu practice allows one to develop/approach all sorts of footwork and adjust to all sorts of motions and different pressures/forces without coming apart or collapsing.
Wow- this can result in "debates" -hopefully civil-between different wing chun folks and setting aside the usual trolling.

joy chaudhuri

[Pacman]

interestingly, another thing 100% opposite is that i learned to shift with the legs. this is where you get the power from

o yeah, also we are on our toes, not our heels.

wow this is like "bizzarro" wing chun to me, hello is goodbye and down is up

i agree, different contexts are important when applying a technique. when i said 0/100 i forgot to say that in practice we do that to develop leg strength and get a feel of swinging your hips around in the biggest arc more using the legs. its harder to shift 0/100 than to stay 50/50, so once you can shift 0/100 then 50/50 i no problem

you might have to adjust how you shift based on where the target is at that moment and other things

my question for the video makers is why they think its important to keep your body, your center, in the same spot while you shift. both shifting on the toes and shifting 0/100 moves your body around, and the guy in the video said that you dont walk like this so dont shift like this.

i dont see the connection between walking and shifting. to me, shifting is for power generation and evasion. what does it have to do with walking?

[Liddel]

I disagree with most of whats said. I wont say its wrong but i feel its a boxed in mentality.

Firstly relating a turning horse to walking which is a controlled fall is rediculous IMO and poor irrrelevant mentality when related to fighting where you intend to be balanced as much as possible.

The statement at 104 that using anything but 50/50 will have you "never develop proper flow in your footwork" is contrary to my own experience using 70/30.

If one watches the science of infighting (something we can all see on youtube)as an example
WSL uses a 70/30 stance and demonstrates flowing shuffling stepping foward back and side to side. So this statement in the clip is worthless IMO unless what they as "proper flow" just means "thier way"

One other problem i have with the clip is at 150 when Ed shows a 60/40 turning horse which is offered as incorrect because "his center is never in line with the pole".
Now i use 70/30 for this very reason (and others), when used - my center has now moved off line letting forces given to my center go away from it as it moves and/or deflects incomming forces away. I also use 70/30 as my heel when turned into a side stance is right under my bum for horse support. In the example of 50/50 given the knee is supporting his weight over the center. I feel the heel support is superior to that of the knee when in a dynamic moving environment like sparring.

I chop and change my weight distribution in sparring, mainly 70/30 but at times in dynamic movement im 50/50. But the comments made in the clip are contrary to how ive been taught and my experience.

each to thier own.

DREW

[SAAMAG]

Shifting differently for different purpose.

Sometimes 50/50 for pure rotation, sometimes 30/70 to dissolve an attack, sometimes 80/20 to rotate the strike into the opponent. 0/100 momentarily for mobility.

Moving up and down? Not so much "bouncing" but almost like "falling" through the fist/elbow into the opponent to maximize utilization of the body mass.

In general, I see rules as guides for training beginners. Ultimately, all rules are to be broken. Fight free of inhibitions.

Cheers,
John

I was gonna reply, but this about sums it up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I doubt if Wong Shun Leung ever used a 70/30 when fighting or seriously sparring. In TWC we use a 50/50 at all times except when getting ready to kick...at which point it's a 100% weight transfer to the support leg.

[YungChun]

Folks seem to overlook the fact that you can't always choose your weight distribution when trying to manage force... This should be a given..

The CK step is it bik ma? Cannot develop the compression engine (rear leg) in the form with 50/50.. With 50/50 training in that step you are developing half the power, half the compression and half the loading (balance recovery) of the rear power generator.. There is NO benefit to developing a power generator with half the compression/loading...

Moreover, when you kick and you have more weight on your lead you must shift the weight first and then kick.. VT idea is to be ready to kick already when using that stepping as well as keeping the lead leg "free" to harass, trap and disrupt him down below, again not something you can do with the lead leg loaded..

Having said that... It is just as incorrect to adopt that kind of rear stance as a full-time fighting stance IMO.. It simply represents a mechanic, a dynamic and a tool that has it's place, time and purpose in VT fighting.

BTW: Anytime you press off with the rear and lift the lead leg you have 0/100... IF you are balanced you will not be leaning and then you see part of this dynamic in action--if you begin to lose you balance this dynamic trains you to pull that single leg/foot back under you to recover--an amazing dynamic IMO.

[k gledhill]

we try to convey balance in motion constantly as it would be fighting, so pivoting and shifting is done along the central axis line /spine. We shift and pivot according to the balance not the exact drilling foot moves 3"x3"x3"x, etc....so trying to dissect it is redundant to us , like saying , do we face at angle of 45 deg or 43 deg ?? you over analyze it. if your off balance it should be shown to you by fighting or drills to improve it.

chum kil is the way for this, we see it as a balance control drill. Utilizing hips legs elbows as a unit. making the controlling actions of turning an opponent easier because we use all things at once ie lan sao to arm with hips thrust in and leg use, if the stance is bad it will show because we will fight your attempts to move us...

you feel balance or not your adjustments are intuitive not fixed. We try to make our ability to deliver a ko strength punch at all times ideally. If your unbalanced ? how can you....

the hands on drills are for the transfer of force and help developing balanced stances in motion while maintaining our distances to make an attack always, relentless .

We try to strengthen each others stance control, axis stability ,ie, as a drill we can push a guy we face in lok sao, before moving away ourselves, disengaging and moving back at an angle... to really make them work to fight the push away we give them as they then attack the guy moving away....without leaning forwards , back, etc...

so the guy has to fight being pushed backwards in ygkym 1st , then explode after the pusher...who simply offers an arm for a drill choice ...so I would shove you suddenly and then step away just as suddenly , making your job to stay in your stance before attacking, iow not moving back easily....good drill.

Knife training will also enhance the sharp pivoting parry's to gain space for counters , here you shift to a intuitive distances that you feel will allow defense and attack possibilities. if the hips are bad and the axis line leaning the attacker / partner will feel it and show with command of your bad positions...part of the learning curve , what feels solid whats weak ...is just as important to learn from fighting each other as testers for each others weaknesses ...

we pivot on the heels , this allows the axis line to remain straight up and balanced...we try to move and attack/fight like this but not like rockem sock em robots.

we shift in small steps allowing a constant line of force to come out of our contact points, hard to do if you make big steps ie step big pause, step yawn ....if your on someone and they are trying to escape it has to be fast, balanced not leaning forwrds over chasing...even if you reach you have lost force transfer ability. no knockout force.

pole drills also help to develop strong core work

shifting can be subtle shadow work too, like the shell game, now you see me, now you dont, stance and hand work...can be frustrating to the partner the idea is to remove yourself tactically to another position laterally for your counter attacking position with only a slight shift and hand lead switch for the partner...the partner has to keep an attack coming regardless of your move...it makes a good drill for going in a more controlled manner forwards because of the awareness to sudden side shifts, and attempts to counter you....from seung ma ~ toi ma progression...no pre-contact like chi-sao more about using all the drilling /forms for fighting each other.

if you try to use the guy as a support , by the sudden disapearance of both arms and positions, you can easily gain counter attacks to guys who over commit entry to 'where you were' ..the drill also involves the counter entry requireing the strong combination of shift , sharp hip pivot driving , facing and regaining entry to the partner before they can re-face....pretty energetic we do several 2 minute rounds with alternating partners...random movement and counters with shifting to counter attack the attacker, who for the drill will just make punches in one drill....

progression to sparring fighting is seamless.

[SAAMAG]

Kevin can u please divide your response into chapters?

[k gledhill]

hah ..we talk in whole approach to fighting ....takes more words ! I am leaning towards doing clips online.

[SAAMAG]

hah ..we talk in whole approach to fighting ....takes more words ! I am leaning towards doing clips online.

I'd subscribe to that.