for Terence...

[t_niehoff]

Hold this thought.

But you just said covering is what? "Nonsense"?

"Covering SPACE" is nonsense(covering emptiness); covering your HEAD is a good idea.

Well they are not specific technical application. And they are more general terms. So if not "concepts", then what in your own terms are they?

Ah, let's see. . . . they are what they are . . . kuit.

Yes, it's quite obvious you are talking about Yip kuit and interpretations. We are not. We are talking about sifu Gee's kuit, and an application that comes from a different lineage and interpretation of a phrase that is common in both.

No, we're talking about a WCK kuit and apparently Garrett's weird "interpretation" of it. WCK is WCK.

Please explain your legitimacy statement. You're kind of all over the place with that - usually that argument you bring up in the context of known people associated with the lineage, not whether or not a fighting application of the kuit is sound.

A legitimate branch, and I emphasize branch, of WCK (which, btw, says nothing about how "good" it is or its practitioners are -- that's a separate issue) has IMO proved historical roots -- we know where it came from, who it came from, etc.

If you mean by legitimacy the proven soundness of application in a fighting scenario, I'd love to see your evidence of Yip Man lineages having that where HFY people do not.

Since we're striving to be intellectually honest.

That's not what I was talking about, but certainly there have been some in the Yip lineage, notably WSL, most recently Alan and his guys, that have had documented success in challenge and MMA fights, respectively.

[Wayfaring]

"Covering SPACE" is nonsense(covering emptiness); covering your HEAD is a good idea.

So it sounds like here you just don't understand what is meant by the word space in the context we are talking. Your head exists in a certain space for example. I'm certain you've heard the term "personal space". But here you're just being argumentative and refusing to get it despite logical arguments.

Ah, let's see. . . . they are what they are . . . kuit.

That's a cop-out answer. Come up with a better synonym since you're being critical of the one that's being used..

No, we're talking about a WCK kuit and apparently Garrett's weird "interpretation" of it. WCK is WCK.

I don't know what the h3ll it is exactly that you're talking about. You seem to think there's some universal WCK "kuit" like the Holy Grail that exists out in the stratosphere, and that somehow all people teaching WCK from the 1800's have made a pilgramage to see it and copy it down for all their students. That's delusional.

Yip Man had a written kuit, his students hence inherited it. Other WCK branches not Yip Man have their own written and oral kuits from their lineages and family teachings. These, by the way, are not unique to WCK. Many other arts have them as well. Other lineages not being from Yip Man wouldn't have his kuit. Even on this forum for example, Hendrik has posted things from his family's kuit, which is not Yip Man.

Sifu Gee's oral kuit has phrases in it that don't exist in other WCK lineages. This is not some super secret thing, but you can read some of these phrases in his book "Mastering Kung Fu", which is published, has an ISBN, etc. Different phrases, different application. This is not rocket science, but yet somehow, possibly due to some of your attachments with arguing with HFY people, you just don't want to get it.

A legitimate branch, and I emphasize branch, of WCK (which, btw, says nothing about how "good" it is or its practitioners are -- that's a separate issue) has IMO proved historical roots -- we know where it came from, who it came from, etc.

At least here you were intellectually honest enough to include the words IMO. Great. Thanks for your opinion. But, I disagree. WCK is not like BJJ, in that everyone can trace back to Helio Gracie, or Carlos Gracie Jr. In HFY people's opinion, this is a matter of Wong Wa Boh vs. Hung Gun Biu as being who people trace through.

That's not what I was talking about, but certainly there have been some in the Yip lineage, notably WSL, most recently Alan and his guys, that have had documented success in challenge and MMA fights, respectively.

Yes, Alan has taken Sifu Chu's teachings, cross-trained in BJJ, and has a decent small show fight team with 2 or 3 pros and a number of amateurs. While that seems like a huge accomplishment for WCK people, it's not all that remarkable in the overall context. There are 2 or 3 MMA schools in almost every major city in the US that do the same thing, as well as many other countries. Even in medium sized cities. I'm saying this so you don't get all worked up and start swinging from the man's nuts again. It's embarassing. Why don't you put together your own team?

[JPinAZ]

Yes, Alan has taken Sifu Chu's teachings, cross-trained in BJJ, and has a decent small show fight team with 2 or 3 pros and a number of amateurs. While that seems like a huge accomplishment for WCK people, it's not all that remarkable in the overall context. There are 2 or 3 MMA schools in almost every major city in the US that do the same thing, as well as many other countries. Even in medium sized cities. I'm saying this so you don't get all worked up and start swinging from the man's nuts again. It's embarassing. Why don't you put together your own team?

Ouch!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Forget the team. Would you settle for a thirty second youtube video

What's that, Terence?

Oh, forget it Wayfaring...Niehoff has said that there will never be any videos or teams coming from his part of the woods. Ever.

But he is planning about another 10,000 posts to explain what it is that he does. And why what the rest of us are doing is all wrong. Bet you can't wait for that !!!

[LSWCTN1]

"Covering SPACE" is nonsense(covering emptiness); covering your HEAD is a good idea.

why does chung choi come to the centre then out then?

fwiw, i dont think you can cover your head (without gloves) without covering the space. a static hand is too small and the forearm cover COMPLETELY violates the wck principles

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know what the h3ll it is exactly that you're talking about. You seem to think there's some universal WCK "kuit" like the Holy Grail that exists out in the stratosphere, and that somehow all people teaching WCK from the 1800's have made a pilgramage to see it and copy it down for all their students. That's delusional.

I have noticed that the chatter about kuit has got progressively wierd. Especially since I've always felt that the kuit being 'shared' here is mostly not what Ip Man would have taught. Just too 'traditional' IMHO.

Yip Man had a written kuit, his students hence inherited it. Other WCK branches not Yip Man have their own written and oral kuits from their lineages and family teachings. These, by the way, are not unique to WCK. Many other arts have them as well. Other lineages not being from Yip Man wouldn't have his kuit. Even on this forum for example, Hendrik has posted things from his family's kuit, which is not Yip Man.

My point exactly! (I think?!) And that is IF Ip Man even had a kuit, let alone teach with it. Most of his more well known students wouldn't even know what it was IMHO.

Sifu Gee's oral kuit has phrases in it that don't exist in other WCK lineages. This is not some super secret thing, but you can read some of these phrases in his book "Mastering Kung Fu", which is published, has an ISBN, etc. Different phrases, different application. This is not rocket science, but yet somehow, possibly due to some of your attachments with arguing with HFY people, you just don't want to get it.

Aren't you just highlighting that Sifu Gee is no different than any other 'non-Ip Man' descendent who teaches kuit that are generally not from Ip Man nor related to Wing Chun exactly? Maybe he too has just had access to some older, more Shaolin based literature?

[t_niehoff]

So it sounds like here you just don't understand what is meant by the word space in the context we are talking. Your head exists in a certain space for example. I'm certain you've heard the term "personal space". But here you're just being argumentative and refusing to get it despite logical arguments.

Look,when you cover your head, you're not covering "space" where your head happens to be but your head -- why TRY to make it anything more than it is?

That's a cop-out answer. Come up with a better synonym since you're being critical of the one that's being used..

It's not a cop-out, it is what it is. But when everything is a "concept" to you . . . .

I don't know what the h3ll it is exactly that you're talking about. You seem to think there's some universal WCK "kuit" like the Holy Grail that exists out in the stratosphere, and that somehow all people teaching WCK from the 1800's have made a pilgramage to see it and copy it down for all their students. That's delusional.

WCK is an approach to fighting and a means of training that approach. It comes from one source, right? We may not know for certain what that source is, but all these lineages and branches didn't all just coincidentally develop the same forms, kuit, drills, etc. By looking across LEGITIMATE lineages in a historical context, and seeing the commonality, we can see that certain movements, certain kuit, certain drills, etc. are "universal" with regard to the WCK curriculum. Those are the things the ancestors/founders left us.

WCK is WCK, and the various lineages/branches are just various peoples ways of teaching the same subject.

Yip Man had a written kuit, his students hence inherited it. Other WCK branches not Yip Man have their own written and oral kuits from their lineages and family teachings. These, by the way, are not unique to WCK. Many other arts have them as well. Other lineages not being from Yip Man wouldn't have his kuit. Even on this forum for example, Hendrik has posted things from his family's kuit, which is not Yip Man.

All the kuit were oral, it's just that Yip wrote them down (since he was literate, unlike most other people in China). Yes, many of the kuit are "generic" -- that's not a big surprise since much of fighting is "generic".

And, yes, various lineages have adopted other kuit -- and other things, including forms, drills,etc. -- into their WCK curriculums. However, there is a commonality (things in common) that make up a core curriculum of WCK. For example, YJKYM is part of that core curriculum. So is lai lao hoi soong.

Sifu Gee's oral kuit has phrases in it that don't exist in other WCK lineages. This is not some super secret thing, but you can read some of these phrases in his book "Mastering Kung Fu", which is published, has an ISBN, etc. Different phrases, different application. This is not rocket science, but yet somehow, possibly due to some of your attachments with arguing with HFY people, you just don't want to get it.

I know that Garrett has added all kinds of things to his curriculum. That doesn't change what I'm talking about. The core curriculum of WCK is the core curriculum.

At least here you were intellectually honest enough to include the words IMO. Great. Thanks for your opinion. But, I disagree. WCK is not like BJJ, in that everyone can trace back to Helio Gracie, or Carlos Gracie Jr. In HFY people's opinion, this is a matter of Wong Wa Boh vs. Hung Gun Biu as being who people trace through.

We can reliably trace LEGITIMATE lineages back to the Red Boats (where it is likely that WCK originated). Yes, I know the HFY "opinion" but as I have said before, as you can't prove HFY existed prior to Garrett, that opinion is merely fantasy/wishful thinking.

Yes, Alan has taken Sifu Chu's teachings, cross-trained in BJJ, and has a decent small show fight team with 2 or 3 pros and a number of amateurs. While that seems like a huge accomplishment for WCK people, it's not all that remarkable in the overall context. There are 2 or 3 MMA schools in almost every major city in the US that do the same thing, as well as many other countries. Even in medium sized cities. I'm saying this so you don't get all worked up and start swinging from the man's nuts again. It's embarassing. Why don't you put together your own team?

Don't criticize me for bringing him up when you asked: "If you mean by legitimacy the proven soundness of application in a fighting scenario, I'd love to see your evidence of Yip Man lineages having that where HFY people do not." I also brought up WSL (I guess I'm nuthugging Alan but not Wong?). I was pointing out that there were people in the YM lineage who did have accomplishments that HFY did not.

But I do agree with you that it is not a major accomplishment -- except within the WCK community where people do not train like fighters for the most part.

[t_niehoff]

why does chung choi come to the centre then out then?

The jik chung choi comes from the center because we are striking with our body structure (hitting his center with our center). It has nothing to do with covering space. The punch doesn't cover anything unless it is in contact with it (like a bridge).

fwiw, i dont think you can cover your head (without gloves) without covering the space. a static hand is too small and the forearm cover COMPLETELY violates the wck principles

There are no WCK "principles" except in people's imaginations -- and that's why they can be just about anything people want them to be.

You can cover your head without gloves. If you get caught and it's between taking an overhand or covering with your forearm and violating your imaginary principles, what will you do? My bet is that after taking a couple, you'll begin covering. In fighting, you do what you NEED to do.

[duende]

Enough!!

The so called Wing Chun experts are just butt sore because they didn't have a real understandng of Mo Ying Da Yeng. Surprise surpise.. They don't know everything they claim to! On this thread ub particular, they don't know what shadow refers to in WC.

Therfore, they had to make up some personal interpretation that effectively turned the Kuen Kuit Mo Ying Da Yeng into Mo Ying Jeui Ying. Which is WRONG!

Again... Our ancestors would know the difference. Despite what Robert or Terence would have people believe.

The Shadow is a real concept in WC. With legitimate reference points, bridging tools, and engagment strategy. All of which I've not only offered here to my fellow WC pratitioners, but explained in detail.

Unfortunately the problem with so called experts is that sometimes their egos can't handle others knowing more than them. So they result to insults and questions of legitimacy.

Sad... You'd think after a decade of this foolishness, they'd give it a rest.

[m1k3]

You know, if you lost the esoteric terms translated (poorly) from Chinese and explain it using simple English this might go better.

Boxing has kuit also. Things like "Keep your effing hands up" and "Don't just stand there move!" or "When in doubt, jab".

You notice, no shadows, no cryptic talk just good advice.

[duende]

And btw..

Covering space is effectively covering an entire gate by way of occupying space with a stronger structure. We cover our upper gate instead of just covering our head... As this is safer and has both defensive and offensive strategy uses. It is part of the part of the WC principle of simultaneous attack and defence.

Covering only your head functions defensively, but offers NO offensive purpose or strategy. And in effect leads to looping or continuing an exchange needlessly.

The problem here is that Terence's western mindset has torn the concept of covering into little pieces and doesn't see the bigger picture, or in this case the over-all strategy.

In WC we think in terms of the whole... It's a system with coherent logic flow from top to down. Not a collection of techniques that are tbrown together in some hodgpodge manner.

[t_niehoff]

Enough!!

The so called Wing Chun experts are just butt sore because they didn't have a real understandng of Mo Ying Da Yeng. Surprise surpise.. They don't know everything they claim to! On this thread ub particular, they don't know what shadow refers to in WC.

Yes, I agree with you -- this is why it is very helpful to not accept what anyone -- including your sifu or grandmaster says -- blindly as true. Cross-checking across lineages will show you what historically is part of the WCK core curriculum.

Therfore, they had to make up some personal interpretation that effectively turned the Kuen Kuit Mo Ying Da Yeng into Mo Ying Jeui Ying. Which is WRONG!

No, we're all talking about mo ying da yieng (no form strike shadow). Ym and YKS lineages both have the kuit, both lineages can be reliably traced back - with different people - to the Red Boats, and they have the same kuit. But they are wrong! OK.

Again... Our ancestors would know the difference. Despite what Robert or Terence would have people believe.

The YM/YKS kuit does come from the ancestors -- and we can reliably trace it back to the Red Boats.

hTe Shadow is a real concept in WC. With legitimate reference points, bridging tools, and engagment strategy. All of which I've not only offered here to my fellow WC pratitioners, but explained in detail.

Yes, you've explained it and I've told you things won't work that way -- you won't have the time when you just catch glimpses via peripheral vision to react like you're saying, and even if you did,it would be a poor way to react.

Unfortunately the problem with so called experts is that sometimes their egos can't handle others knowing more than them. So they result to insults and questions of legitimacy.

Sad... You'd think after a decade of this foolishness, they'd give it a rest.

Isn't it ironic -- you claim to REALLY know the truth, that you were told by some so-called expert, and don't like being told you are wrong . . . .

I'm not insulting anyone. If you can prove HFY existed prior to Garret, provide the evidence. We'd all love to see it. The truth is that you can't. And the truth isn't an insult. If we want to examine these things from a historical POV, you need to first establish with a fair degree of certainty what should be considered, and it's not sound to consider sources that haven't been established as reliable.

[m1k3]

The problem here is that Terence's western mindset has torn the concept of covering into little pieces and doesn't see the bigger picture, or in this case the over-all strategy.

In WC we think in terms of the whole... It's a system with coherent logic flow from top to down. Not a collection of techniques that are tbrown together in some hodgpodge manner.

So, boxing, wrestling, fencing, MMA and BJJ are nothing more than a collection of techniques that are thrown together in a hodgepodge manner? No bigger picture, no over-all strategy. Simple minded brute force.




Wow, what have you been smoking?

[duende]

So, boxing, wrestling, fencing, MMA and BJJ are nothing more than a collection of techniques that are thrown together in a hodgepodge manner? No bigger picture, no over-all strategy. Simple minded brute force.

Wow, what have you been smoking?

WTF?

We are talking about WC Mo Ying Da Yeng are we not???

Don't take comments out of context and try to put words in my mouth. All these MA have their own strategies and with their own expression. Your arguing with no one here but yourself.

[m1k3]

Sorry, I may have misunderstood you but it seemed to me that the "Western Mindset" comment and the collection of hodgepodge techniques could be taken as a blanket criticism of western martial arts, also developed with said western mindset.