Who is the Bad Boy of KFM?

[BGZ BadBoy]

FYI, Scott, Tim Cartmell was the all Southeast Asian full contact champion and holds an impressive full contact, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and MMA fighting record. He currently works as the head Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor and MMA coach at the Ace Jiu Jitsu Academy. Your claim that "all he has done is demonstrate he buys into the traditional story" is a surprisingly idiotic statement at even absolute best. On the contrary, Tim has clearly demonstrated, in practical application, everything he claims when it comes to Chinese internal martial arts. A little research on your part would easily produce this information.
Try reading Tim's book "Effortless Combat Throws"..the first several chapters are devoted exclusively to the very internal martial arts principles which you have so quickly and foolishly dismissed as being nonsensical and even "dangerous" practices.
Of course, you'll continue to simply ignore the facts in a vain attempt to steer the conversation into another direction for lack of evidence to support your ridiculously uneducated and inane position.
For the purposes of your futher enlightenment and education, I have included an excerpt from an interview with Tim Cartmell which was taken from the Wu Gong Journal, May-June 1998,vol. 3, #15 regarding his Tai Chi training:

"In Taiwan, I studied Xing Yi Quan with Xu Hong Ji and later with his son Xu Zhen Wang. I studied Old style Yang Tai Ji Quan and Xu Xi Dao (an esoteric Crane style) with Chen Zhuo Zhen. My next Tai Ji Quan teacher was Lin Ah Long, who taught me the Yang and Chen Zhao Bao styles. I studied Yi Quan and the Internal styles with Gao Liu De. I studied the Old Frame of the Chen style with Xu Fu Jin. I studied Gao style Ba Gua Zhang and Chen Pan Ling style Tai Ji Quan with Luo De Xiu. In mainland China, I studied He Bei style Xing Yi Quan with Liang Ke Quan. I studied Sun style Ba Gua Zhang and Tai Ji Quan with Sun Jian Yun, Sun Bao An and Liu Yan Long. I studied Shan Xi Xing Yi with Mao Ming Chun."

"Saying it as a traditional platitude and demonstrating its truth are two different things." I would say its truth has been more than sufficiently demonstrated, bonehead.

[Eddie]

you are confusing the arts Badboy. When Tim Cartmell fights BJJ, im sure he uses whatever skill he has to beat his oponents. Just because he also studied Taiji, doesnt mean he actually use his taiji skill. If you look at a fighter, they use general fighting methods to win, nothing fancy.

How do one figure out which skill you are using in a fight if you have studied mulitple arts?

The different arts can all help to add something to your skill in their own small way, but thats about it

[BGZ BadBoy]

I'm not confusing anything. You don't think he applied the same Tai Chi principles he so faithfully espouses when he became the all Southeast Asian full contact champion? Tim clearly demonstrated the validity of the very principles Scott so ignorantly and prematurely dismisses. Perhaps you misunderstood the post or have failed to read the entire thread. Peace.

[Scott R. Brown]

FYI, Scott, Tim Cartmell was the all Southeast Asian full contact champion and holds an impressive full contact, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and MMA fighting record........

For the purposes of your futher enlightenment and education, I have included an excerpt from an interview with Tim Cartmell which was taken from the Wu Gong Journal, May-June 1998,vol. 3, #15 regarding his Tai Chi training:

I'm not confusing anything. You don't think he applied the same Tai Chi principles he so faithfully espouses when he became the all Southeast Asian full contact champion?

No Tyson, I do not ignore facts. You are the one living in marital arts fantasyland here!

Using Tai Chi or Bagua principles is NOT the same thing as using their body structure. I have never disagreed with Tai Chi or Bagua's foundational principles, only the fantasyland structural components.

Please point me to ANYTHING where Cartmell "specifically" mentions which principles of Bagua and Tai Chi he has used during his professional fights and under what circumstances. THAT would be interesting to learn and understand!

Please point me to ANYTHING where Cartmell "specifically" states what physical aspects of Tai Chi or Bagua he uses to train for his professional fights and how they better prepare him for his fights than the methods other fighters use!

Then, while you are wasting your time trying to use Cartmell as an example please show me where he uses the NATURAL movements of circle walking, lifting the crown, tucking the anus or sinking the chest actions is his professional fights!

You are still avoiding directly addressing those components whose efficiency and safety I have brought into question.

At no point have you even quoted anything your "experts" have said that actually demonstrates the "natural" characteristics and benefits of any of these components.

In fact all you can do is quote other people when you have stated previously you wanted to bless us all with your knowledge and insight!

Since Cartmell is your hero, please post a video of him using Tai Chi structural components, or Bagua I am not picky, effectively in his professional fights and explain in what manner, and why, they were superior to what others use!

Actually, I think using a gun is the best, most efficient method of defending oneself. It is much easier to learn to use, it erases the tough guy attitudes from wimps like you, and all those years of martial arts training REAL tough guys trained in a moment of time!

If Cartmell thinks Tai Chi and Bagua and Hsing I better prepare a person for fighting, why is he teaching grappling arts?

So far you still have done nothing or said anything that demonstrates any unique insight or wisdom pertaining to anything at all.

You have not addressed any of my points directly other than point to quotes you do not understand made by people you think know what they are talking about, yet have not posted any comments they have made that demonstrate my point of view to be incorrect.

In short all you have been able to say is, "Scott is wrong because Tim Cartmell teaches something completely different", which is no demonstration of fact, only OPINION!

Once again, for your little pea brain.......

If something is a fact, if it is unequivocally true, it is true for a reason and that reason may be demonstrated! If you cannot demonstrate why it is true, you do not understand the principle very well. If you cannot demonstrate why it is true, you have NO INSIGHT into that principle. If you cannot demonstrate why it is true, FOR YOURSELF WITHOUT HELP FROM OTHERS, all you are is an ignorant sheep blindly following authority and may be easily manipulated by those whom you blindly trust!

Now.....once again......try demonstrating, through argument or example:

1) How "lifting the crown" is a more effective and efficient manner of fighting!

2) How "sinking the chest" provides one with better fighting skills!

3) How "circle walking" and twisting the torso in an abnormal manner, will make one a better fighter!

4) How "Lifting the anus" or bringing it forward, makes one a better fighter and does not reduce power!

Don't make it hard on your little brain, just pick one! Then when you are done, please explain why NO FIGHTER does ANY of these in their professional fights. Certainly if any of these methods made one a better fighter someone would have realized this in the past 4,000 years and would be winning fights everywhere. Especially since thousands if not millions of dollars are to be made winning fights!

Oh yeah, and which grappling school does any of these please?

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh Yeah...

.....one more thing.......

....you have yet to demonstrate how 1, 2, 3, or 4 are NATURAL movements.....which is my primary argument here!

After you have demonstrated how they are NATURAL movements, THEN you can move on to how they are superior to other body structure methods taught and used by REAL fighters and which presumably you consider to be UNNATURAL movements!

[omarthefish]

Please point me to ANYTHING where Cartmell "specifically" mentions which principles of Bagua and Tai Chi he has used during his professional fights and under what circumstances. THAT would be interesting to learn and understand!

He actually has several books out on the subject. If your too cheap to buy one of his book, you could visit his message board. He has addressed these topics on numerous occasions. He's on record as saying that BJJ is no different from Taijiquan except that it is on the ground.

Please point me to ANYTHING where Cartmell "specifically" states what physical aspects of Tai Chi or Bagua he uses to train for his professional fights and how they better prepare him for his fights than the methods other fighters use!

I reccomnd his book "Effortless Combat Throws" for specific examples. He is well feared on the BJJ circuit for his throws. In most footage I have seen, people tend to attempt to pull guard as quickly as possible with him because his throws are so superior to what is typically seen on the BJJ circuit but his throwing training comes primarily from Bagua via. Luo De Xiu.

Then, while you are wasting your time trying to use Cartmell as an example please show me where he uses the NATURAL movements of circle walking, lifting the crown, tucking the anus or sinking the chest actions is his professional fights!

Again, there is no shortage of clips of him demonstating these exact principles. Just search youtube or shenwu.com or purchase one of his instructional videos.

If Cartmell thinks Tai Chi and Bagua and Hsing I better prepare a person for fighting, why is he teaching grappling arts?

I'm not aware of him ever saying any such thing. From conversations with his students over at Shenwu, it seems pretty clear that his entire standup game is based directly on the 3 internal arts he learned in Taiwan. However, as none of those three offer and well rounded curriculum of groundfighint, he went out and supplemented it with BJJ. He uses BJJ for the ground and a combination of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji for his standup game.

[BGZ BadBoy]

Oh Enlightened One,
I have answered every question you have put to me, directly. I have supported my argument with verifiable evidence and expert testimony, and have even gone so far as to provide reference and source material for you to further investigate everything that I have so effortlessly and completely dismissed your entire, uneducated argument with. You, on the other hand, have not provided so much as a single piece of supporting evidence, no experiential knowledge of any kind, no expert testimony in support of your ludicrous position, and have, quite effectively, locked yourself into a logic which is circular and self-defeating by its very nature. Face facts..your personal vendetta against me has completely blinded you to any truth whatsoever outside of your own blatantly ignorant and moronic sense of reality. In any court of law, I would have already won my case hands-down, while you were still arguing pomp and circumstance without any evidence or experiential knowledge to back it up. You can't handle the fact that I know exactly what I'm talking about..you're just an ignorant moron who has absolutely no experience or evidence to draw on to support your position..clearly none whatsoever.
You're a sad, sad man, Scott. Honestly, far more pathetic than even I could have originally imagined. While nearly everyone else on this forum has supported my statements in spite of their dislike for me personally, you continue to insist that yours is the only informed and educated position..and what do you base this enlightened position on? Absolutely nothing except your own uneducated, narcissistic opinion.
You have unwittingly made my case for me..and quite effectively I might add. You clearly won't take anything I have to say as truth, and when faced with the truth from anyone else, you simply deny that too. Apparently, you have the answers that everyone else, including many very accomplished Chinese internal martial artists, have somehow unfortunately managed to completely miss out on. Good for you. Now, do yourself a huge favor..go play with something non-toxic and leave the Chinese martial arts to those who actually have a clue, mmmkay?
From now on I'm going to refer to you simply as "The Enlightened One"..lol.

[uki]

Btw, if you ever were stupid enough to pull a gun on me (or any other weapon you mistakenly think is going to even the odds for that matter), you'd better hope half of it's chocolate and half of it's Vaseline (I'll leave you to figure out exactly why).

have ever had a gun pulled on you or put do your head?? are you speaking from experience?? how can you be so sure you wouldn't clam up with fear - stuck frozen like a deer in the headlights?? LOL

[Scott R. Brown]

So many tough guys with so little brains. Tyson, you have not answered even one of my questions, so keep living in your fantasyland.

Omar,

thank you for the post. I will look into the information you have posted. Saying he uses it is not the same thing as actually using it. I took aikido for years. I use the principles all the time and even teach them when i do teach. But i do not use the techniques as they are exactly taught in the schools because real life is not pretend class techniques.

i am not talking about the principles of Tai Chi or Bagua.Tyson claimed Bagua and Tai Chi follow natural movements of the body. I contend that they are not all that natural.

Tucking in/lifting the anus, withdrawing the chest, circle walking while twisting awkwardly are NOT natural movements and are not effective in making one a better fighter. I have not said that NO techniques are valuable. There is large part of these arts that are from fantasyland just as they are in many other arts.

Throws all follow the same principles PERIOD. Whether i say my throws come from Bagua, shiu jiao (sp?), judo, jujitus, aikido etc. it doesnt matter they all follow the same principles.

striking and kicking are striking and kicking. the power generated is the same for every person doing the same kicks and the same strikes. the body moves the same for all of the different movements in martial arts.

I want to know how circle walking while doing an outward twisting motion or suspending the head or sinking the chest or lifting the anus, which tyson claims are all natural movements and i do not are natural movements and how they make one a better fighter and if they do make one a better fighter why no professional fighters waste their time on these practices.

One person however skilled, does not count, unless he is the best the world has ever seen. the best anyone can say from this guy you and tyson have mentioned is that the many principles and techniques are universal.

But what about the so called natural movements that are neither natural nor effective? they are a waste of time to practice unless it can be demonstrate the the profit/loss ratio of the time and effort spent on them pays off bigger dividends than other PROVEN training methods.

[bawang]

i think im a kung fu bad boy. every day i wake up i pray to guan yu for death of my enemyes, and vow to avenge the boxer robels. then i do a sun moon salute to the sky. i read the poem "destroy demons spare the righteous" by hong xiuquan then repeat silently "fan qing fu ming" three times, then shed a single tear down my left cheek. then i have breakfast

Tucking in/lifting the anus

lol anus anus anus

[David Jamieson]

i think im a kung fu bad boy. every day i wake up i pray to guan yu for death of my enemyes, and vow to avenge the boxer robels. then i do a sun moon salute to the sky. i read the poem "destroy demons spare the righteous" by hong xiuquan then repeat silently "fan qing fu ming" three times, then shed a single tear down my left cheek. then i have breakfast


lol anus anus anus

what about after breakfast though?

no more recitations and you have to actually go about with all the vengeance stuff. The actual deeds of avenging! that's the hard part. Oh sure, we can talk about our suffering but what do we do to alleviate it?

p.s yes, I would say it's Ross as well. He has that acerbic and acidic quality and yet frequently understands the subject matter.

[Scott R. Brown]

i was referring to david in a complimentary way. he doesnt take crap, tells it like it is as he sees it, and ESPECIALLY knows what he is talking about! that is why he is #1 in my book!

[David Jamieson]

i was referring to david in a complimentary way. he doesnt take crap, tells it like it is as he sees it, and ESPECIALLY knows what he is talking about! that is why he is #1 in my book!

well why don't you just marry the guy already?

[SPJ]

i think im a kung fu bad boy. every day i wake up i pray to guan yu for death of my enemyes, and vow to avenge the boxer robels. then i do a sun moon salute to the sky. i read the poem "destroy demons spare the righteous" by hong xiuquan then repeat silently "fan qing fu ming" three times, then shed a single tear down my left cheek. then i have breakfast

hong xiu quan and fang si yu

childhood favorite tales for many

no need to chant "anti qing restoring ming" any more

b/c it is done. qing was no more 99 years ago.

next year will be centenial or 100 year aniversary of the demise of last ai xin jue lou family rule

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oh bad a s s or bad boy dun cry or shed tears,

or big girl---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2s54...eature=related

[SPJ]

where did you find this? Are there others?

I googled chinese swordsman--

it showed up.

I think it is an image from a computer game

which one I do not know

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best luck.