Who is the Bad Boy of KFM?

[Scott R. Brown]

All you have done is repeat what you have been taught and haven't spent much time considering the truth or falsity of it.

If you practice questioning what you have been taught you will find that most of these movements are decidedly UNNATURAL.

Consider Bagua's circle walking with the outward twisting of the waist. This is very POOR spinal alignment and could be dangerous in many daily activities, especially in a fight.

Think for yourself and try not to parrot what you have been taught! Just because something has been taught for hundreds of years does not make it automatically correct.

[dimethylsea]

Scott,

Isn't there some Chinese saying about a frog in a well?

[TenTigers]

frankly, (and this is just my opinion, mind you) I believe it is a misinterpetation of the term, "natural movement," when applied to Martial Arts. Barring something that will cause an injury, all movement is natural, as our bodies have many joints and ranges of motion. However, that being said, none of the movements are natural, as they all need to be learned and strictly practiced- for a very long time before they become conditioned responses, and feel as if they are natural. Natural also means not fighting yourself, meaning not only flexibility, but relaxation, of body and mind.
I believe if you can use this interpetation, both Scott Brown and Tyler Durr's doppleganger *can come to a mutual understanding.




*maybe you got them all fooled, but you're not fooling me! I don't know who sent you here, or what your insidious mission is, but it won't work! You may be a walk-in, a gwai, a dibbyck, a pod, a V, or an incubus, but mark my words, you will be unmasked!

[Scott R. Brown]

My contention is that "natural movement" is movement that occurs spontaneously according to specific situations, that is, from specific causes/needs of the moment.

Swimming is different than climbing a rope, so the body will spontaneously move differently according to each circumstance.

However, when swimming ,and rope climbing, there are a specific movements that are more efficient than others and "the basic beginners method" is rarely the most efficient/effective.

The type of swimming stroke that is the most efficient according to the needs at the time is not always the one the beginner uses due to a lack of understanding and training. If one wants to move as quickly as possible one uses the crawl stroke, however the crawl stroke requires more energy than the breast stroke, so if one has a long way to swim and is not a trained swimmer, the breast stroke would be more efficient under those specific circumstances.

Both are natural movements in that the body MAY function efficiently using either stroke according to the circumstance.

The dog paddle on the other hand, while a "naturally occurring" stroke for the untrained, is one of the most inefficient and energy wasting strokes people use, even though it is also the most common one used by the untrained.

When fighting there are certain movements that the untrained "naturally" fall into which are generally avoided by those who are trained.


Confusion then arises when a specific art teaches that certain "artificially" created movements are naturally occurring. While the body may be able to move in a "specified" manner that manner of movement is NOT always the most efficient, or safe, for the purpose at hand.

One of the most dangerous methods of movement is twisting the hips in one direction while the shoulders twist in the opposite direction. This torquing of the spine is dangerous, it is unstable and causes shearing forces along the spinal column that may lead to serious injury, especially during the forceful and sudden movements in a fight.

That does not mean that this type of movement never occurs in a fight or that one should not train some of these movements, I am specifying that this movement as trained in Bagua is NOT a natural movement in the sense of safe and efficient for fighting.

I will not address other flaws of "natural" movements such as sinking the chest and tucking the anus that are taught in many arts etc. because the above makes my point pretty well I think!

[SoCo KungFu]

My contention is that "natural movement" is movement that occurs spontaneously according to specific situations, that is, from specific causes/needs of the moment.

Swimming is different than climbing a rope, so the body will spontaneously move differently according to each circumstance.

However, when swimming ,and rope climbing, there are a specific movements that are more efficient than others and "the basic beginners method" is rarely the most efficient/effective.

The type of swimming stroke that is the most efficient according to the needs at the time is not always the one the beginner uses due to a lack of understanding and training. If one wants to move as quickly as possible one uses the crawl stroke, however the crawl stroke requires more energy than the breast stroke, so if one has a long way to swim and is not a trained swimmer, the breast stroke would be more efficient under those specific circumstances.

Both are natural movements in that the body MAY function efficiently using either stroke according to the circumstance.

The dog paddle on the other hand, while a "naturally occurring" stroke for the untrained, is one of the most inefficient and energy wasting strokes people use, even though it is also the most common one used by the untrained.

When fighting there are certain movements that the untrained "naturally" fall into which are generally avoided by those who are trained.


Confusion then arises when a specific art teaches that certain "artificially" created movements are naturally occurring. While the body may be able to move in a "specified" manner that manner of movement is NOT always the most efficient, or safe, for the purpose at hand.

One of the most dangerous methods of movement is twisting the hips in one direction while the shoulders twist in the opposite direction. This torquing of the spine is dangerous, it is unstable and causes shearing forces along the spinal column that may lead to serious injury, especially during the forceful and sudden movements in a fight.

That does not mean that this type of movement never occurs in a fight or that one should not train some of these movements, I am specifying that this movement as trained in Bagua is NOT a natural movement in the sense of safe and efficient for fighting.

I will not address other flaws of "natural" movements such as sinking the chest and tucking the anus that are taught in many arts etc. because the above makes my point pretty well I think!

I don't know about all that. But I can tell you that you cross up your legs like that to me and that's one giant, blinking, red, neon sign telling me to shoot your *** to the ground and pound your face into concrete. Whether it's natural or not, its a pretty stupid thing to try and do in the event you might be fighting someone bigger, stronger, wrestler, football player, etc. Esp if you're as small as twig arms there.

[SoCo KungFu]

No, SoCo, actually I've given you all of the information I'm going to give you, because honestly, I couldn't care less what a nobody, forum loud-mouth thinks. Now, put down the meth-pipe, take a deep breath, and realize, nobody cares..least of all, me..lol.
I'm simply going to ignore your inane ramblings from this point forward..I've already given you more information than you obviously deserve. Maybe eventually, just maybe, you'll find something more worthwhile to occupy your time apart from your obvious fixation and fascination with all things BGZ BadBoy..lol.

So basically you're just another mouth-boxer with no legitimate credibility posing on the internet making ******* challenges for people to travel halfway across the country like they got nothing better to do than beat the **** out your candy ass. Oh then threaten to call the cops in the process. Gotcha

And you wonder why you're a joke...

[dimethylsea]

Honestly I would say bagua is profoundly "un-natural".. it makes your body into something that routinely does things that aren't normal at all.

You want to do it until this "un natural" thing becomes your "new normal".. so in that sense.. yes you gotta "do it naturally"... but the actual method is anything but natural or normal.

That's why it is fun. If you could just hoist a few at the pub and instantly do it.. it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.


Doing things that aren't natural/normal is alot of fun. Once those abnormal unnatural things become normal.. you go find some other weird ass thing to make into part of your "evolving notion of what typical is".

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know about all that. But I can tell you that you cross up your legs like that to me and that's one giant, blinking, red, neon sign telling me to shoot your *** to the ground and pound your face into concrete. Whether it's natural or not, its a pretty stupid thing to try and do in the event you might be fighting someone bigger, stronger, wrestler, football player, etc. Esp if you're as small as twig arms here.

Due to your experience and training you directly perceive the weakness in your opponent and immediate exploit it to your advantage!

You have expressed the same principles I have, but in different terms, the terms of action, rather than as an analysis of the principles of movement in relation to body structure.

You have expressed what works and I have expressed, albeit in an abbreviated and roundabout manner, the principles of why it works!

In a fight what matters most is what allows you to prevail!

Knowing what works and knowing why it works are are sometime mutually exclusive, but they don't have to be.

[Scott R. Brown]

Honestly I would say bagua is profoundly "un-natural".. it makes your body into something that routinely does things that aren't normal at all.

You want to do it until this "un natural" thing becomes your "new normal".. so in that sense.. yes you gotta "do it naturally"... but the actual method is anything but natural or normal.

That's why it is fun. If you could just hoist a few at the pub and instantly do it.. it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.


Doing things that aren't natural/normal is alot of fun. Once those abnormal unnatural things become normal.. you go find some other weird ass thing to make into part of your "evolving notion of what typical is".

Very good point!

My critical analysis should not be taken as a disrespect for the art under examination.

I appreciate Bagua, Tai chi, etc.

However, after one passes the beginners stage, it is beneficial to question everything one has learned. What one keeps and what one discards should be based upon what one wishes to accomplish. I have no problem with people practicing needless forms or inefficient techniques.

If they get something out of it, good for them! But if your purpose is to prevail in fights, one must be able to make a critical analysis of what one is practicing and discard what is useless to your needs and purpose.

Most of us have only a limited time to train due to life's responsibilities, therefore if one wish to prevail in fights it would behoove one to discard everything that is useless to that goal and focus on what works best MOST of the time.

While circle walking is indeed enjoyable, and may provide some other benefits, it is decidedly a poor use of time if one wishes to conserve time and maximize training efficiency!

[TenTigers]

I don't know about all that. But I can tell you that you cross up your legs like that to me and that's one giant, blinking, red, neon sign telling me to shoot your *** to the ground and pound your face into concrete. Whether it's natural or not, its a pretty stupid thing to try and do in the event you might be fighting someone bigger, stronger, wrestler, football player, etc. Esp if you're as small as twig arms there.

It has been in my brief experience in BaGua, that the crossing of the legs is not a stance, as much as it is a transitional step in order to remain balanced during a throw or leg sweep. (if you take your opponent's head one way and his leg the other, what do you look like?) Taken out of contex, the twisting, crossing steps, toe in, toe out, circling footwork, etc can appear pretty lame to someone unfamiliar with the training.
This is really basic stuff, we're talkiing about.

[SoCo KungFu]

It has been in my brief experience in BaGua, that the crossing of the legs is not a stance, as much as it is a transitional step in order to remain balanced during a throw or leg sweep. (if you take your opponent's head one way and his leg the other, what do you look like?) Taken out of contex, the twisting, crossing steps, toe in, toe out, circling footwork, etc can appear pretty lame to someone unfamiliar with the training.
This is really basic stuff, we're talkiing about.

It takes more force for you to reap my legs in an unbalanced position than it does for me to maintain structural integrity. That's why those techniques work best on an opponent in motion or caught with one foot off the ground, or when you can get leverage to lift you opponent up and then suck the legs out from under.

We're taught to shoot in on someone even doing something as quick as changing from orthodox to southpaw or vice versa. What you're essentially telling me is that not only are they crossing up their legs but they're going to actually come into MY clinching range to do so...how about they just fall and smack their head on the ground to save myself from having to do anything.

Can it work? Yes.
Would it be wise to try such techniques in the presence of someone from a superior grappling art (standing or otherwise)? I don't think it is.

Transition or not, you cross your legs you better be sure it works or you're getting dumped. That's just really basic stuff...

[Scott R. Brown]

It has been in my brief experience in BaGua, that the crossing of the legs is not a stance, as much as it is a transitional step in order to remain balanced during a throw or leg sweep. (if you take your opponent's head one way and his leg the other, what do you look like?) Taken out of contex, the twisting, crossing steps, toe in, toe out, circling footwork, etc can appear pretty lame to someone unfamiliar with the training.
This is really basic stuff, we're talkiing about.

This is also a very good point!

It is still an unstable and risky movement in many circumstances though.

I prefer the pivoting of the hips and feet used in Aikido, as demonstrated in some expressions of Kokyu Nage. One maintains a more stable center of gravity with this type of throw then!

[Scott R. Brown]

It takes more force for you to reap my legs in an unbalanced position than it does for me to maintain structural integrity. That's why those techniques work best on an opponent in motion or caught with one foot off the ground, or when you can get leverage to lift you opponent up and then suck the legs out from under.

We're taught to shoot in on someone even doing something as quick as changing from orthodox to southpaw or vice versa. What you're essentially telling me is that not only are they crossing up their legs but they're going to actually come into MY clinching range to do so...how about they just fall and smack their head on the ground to save myself from having to do anything.

Can it work? Yes.
Would it be wise to try such techniques in the presence of someone from a superior grappling art (standing or otherwise)? I don't think it is.

Transition or not, you cross your legs you better be sure it works or you're getting dumped. That's just really basic stuff...

This is exactly the difficulty one has when going up against a well trained grappler. Any change in stance, or even just standing in one place for too long, creates an opportunity for a takedown!

[TenTigers]

the cross is where you end up after the leg is swept, meaning you go through. look at Judo's ashi-waza.

[SoCo KungFu]

This is exactly the difficulty one has when going up against a well trained grappler. Any change in stance, or even just standing in one place for too long, creates an opportunity for a takedown!

Its like an osoto-gari. Beautiful (and devastating) when pulled off. But you can't just use it blindly. When you go for those type of throws, you become committed to its success. If it fails you've just given an open door access to your flank and its very difficult to set up with somebody trying throw throw knuckles in your face and not letting you just waltz up beside them.

Like I said, it can be done. But do you want to risk it? Judo guys can hang with a lot of grapplers, they're art is grappling and they do at least have some experience on the ground (in the event they succeed or even better, they fail). But would Joe Bagua fair so well? I'd put my money on no.