The Wing Chun Enigma (streetfighting)

[Knifefighter]

stamina is rarely an issue. by the time you have to draw on your reserves the police are there taking you both away...

street fights only take ONE good shot. on the whole.
there is often a lot of 'fluff' in between until one person gets that one good shot.

Fluff? Oh, you mean the part where the opponents are going at 100% trying to hurt each other and not getting hurt in the process? No, that's not fatiguing at all.

EVERYONE knows that one punch specialist... thats why people who have some sort of realistic training tend to do better - they can spot and capitalise on that opportunity

One punch KO's happen in both sport and street. They are equally as rare in each.

does anyone think that different systems have spent probably hundreds of years developing their own IP ideas and it not really work.

Yep, they are all over the place.

you harden the hands, you hit with a more solid mass. more KO chance. simples!

The extra mass in miniscule. A few ounces at most.

good example is the olympic TKD guys. most of them are useless and look ridiculous. most other TKD is the same. there ARE odd exceptions however that can make the TKD they teach their students work.

Actually, many of them would stomp people who are average martial artists. I'm betting you've never sparred an actual olympic level TKD practioner, so you are speaking out of your @ss.

[Frost]

you have to remember that street fighting is VERY different.

stamina is rarely an issue. by the time you have to draw on your reserves the police are there taking you both away...

street fights only take ONE good shot. on the whole.
there is often a lot of 'fluff' in between until one person gets that one good shot. EVERYONE knows that one punch specialist... thats why people who have some sort of realistic training tend to do better - they can spot and capitalise on that opportunity

does anyone think that different systems have spent probably hundreds of years developing their own IP ideas and it not really work.

you harden the hands, you hit with a more solid mass. more KO chance. simples!

but by all means, sparring and competition is an excellent way to test your skills outside of your comfort zone.

good example is the olympic TKD guys. most of them are useless and look ridiculous. most other TKD is the same. there ARE odd exceptions however that can make the TKD they teach their students work.

competition is good, very good in fact. but it is NOT the be all and end all

as pointed out by others, fights on the street are rarely over with one punch, and with the adreline of the confrontation and the explosive way it almost always kicks of conditioning does come into play if the fight lasts longer than 20 seconds or so, and how many fights have you seen last less than this? as soon as your heart rate goes up you are in danger of gassing, and this can happen during all that fluff you talk about

as for the tkd example, those guys fight according to their rules and at least they go full contact with the kicks and actually compete...and i remember the case of one stunt guy who before going into movies fought at the OL games, then went into kick boxing and won his first 12 fights all with knockouts...maybe you should tell him how useless his art is

competition may not be the be all and end all but it beats sitting at your PC deluding yourself about what might and might not work in a fight

[Knifefighter]

BTW, the average police response time is about 4 minutes (and this is after someone calls them which will add to the total time). It takes about 60 seconds of high intensity activity to cause lactic acid build-up that starts affecting fatigue levels and ability to perform.

Do the math.

[Wayfaring]

Actually, many of them would stomp people who are average martial artists. I'm betting you've never sparred an actual olympic level TKD practioner, so you are speaking out of your @ss.

True. Olympic wrestlers are even tougher.

[Wayfaring]

BTW, the average police response time is about 4 minutes (and this is after someone calls them which will add to the total time). It takes about 60 seconds of high intensity activity to cause lactic acid build-up that starts affecting fatigue levels and ability to perform.

Do the math.

Larger cities it's longer. Vegas ~45min - 1 hr. LA - same.

[grasshopper 2.0]

I agree, WC is a highly specialized "fist", like SPM for example.
Here is the thing, if a system doesn't work in the ring, with a set confine for both fighters and with set environment and even time to train for a fight, how can it possibly work in the street with No rules and a variable environment with an unknown opponent?
The answer is that, when it works, the opponent was NOT very good.

Hmm..how about this analogy,

If the above is true, then couldn't you say if a tank is good on all on terrain, then shouldn't it be good for the streets?

if a porsche is good for the streets, then it should be good for the race track?

and so on..

[Knifefighter]

Hmm..how about this analogy,

If the above is true, then couldn't you say if a tank is good on all on terrain, then shouldn't it be good for the streets?

if a porsche is good for the streets, then it should be good for the race track?

and so on..

The problem is that WC is not a streetfighting art. Unles part of the curriculum is to actually go out get in street fights, analyze specifics in terms of technique, strategy, tactics, etc, and base the training on the feedback from those streetfights, they it won't be in the future.

If a system is going to be termed a streetfighting system, a major proportion of the training needs to be based on actually going out and doing those kinds of fights.

[Wayfaring]

Hmm..how about this analogy,

One of the problems with WC is too many analogies.

[t_niehoff]

The problem is that WC is not a streetfighting art.

Exactly. I'd add that "street fighting art" is one of those myths, like "complete martial art", that is used to sell WCK to the gullible (it sounds so tough, doesn't it? this is for street, not sport!). It's a fantasy. But it allows theoretical nonfighters to get around not actually being able to apply their art -- this is for the street, not the ring, and that's why you never see anyone do it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To some extent WC is street fighting. Kung fu is typically trained with shoes on which makes the kicking that is used in WCK a bit different. In addition, the the vertical fist is a far superior weapon on the street than the horizontal fist because it is much more structurally sound. The horizontal fist is often favored in the ring for its ability to cut.

Wing chun is decidedly street oriented compared to something like Muay Thai or boxing which are almost strictly taught as a ring sport.

[t_niehoff]

To some extent WC is street fighting. Kung fu is typically trained with shoes on which makes the kicking that is used in WCK a bit different.

No it doesn't.

In addition, the the vertical fist is a far superior weapon on the street than the horizontal fist because it is much more structurally sound. The horizontal fist is often favored in the ring for its ability to cut.

Complete nonsense. The "vertical fist" isn't more "structurally sound" -- nothing in the fist or wrist changes with the rotation, the only thing that changes is that your ulna and radius twist, and that doesn't alter the soundness of your arm's structure in any way. WCK uses a vertical fist because we keep our elbows down (and you can't keep you elbow pointed down and use a horizontal fist). And, the horizontal fist doesn't cut anymore than a vertical fist.

Wing chun is decidedly street oriented compared to something like Muay Thai or boxing which are almost strictly taught as a ring sport.

You're reasoning that since something isn't a sport, then it must be "street oriented"is unsound.

[Knifefighter]

If anything, a "horizontal fist" is more structurally sound.

[t_niehoff]

If anything, a "horizontal fist" is more structurally sound.

I assume you mean that you can strike more powerfully with a "horizontal fist" (since that frees the elbow, and so permits greater weight transfer into your punches)?

[Knifefighter]

I assume you mean that you can strike more powerfully with a "horizontal fist" (since that frees the elbow, and so permits greater weight transfer into your punches)?

Yeah, that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If anything, a "horizontal fist" is more structurally sound.

The obvious answer is that you don't have any punching power so holding for fist either way doesn't really seem to make a difference to you. It's an obvious mistake that I would expect from you. It might be worth noting that structural strength is slightly different issue than striking leverage.