The Wing Chun Enigma (streetfighting)

[Frost]

I dont know why i wasted my time.

Obviously, you guys have already made up your mind, instead of training for it back in 90s which would make you guys half decent by now.

Im assuming you guys like your UFC. Jujitsu in that context is a sport, no fouls aloud. Therefore you dont see it, but when you do, you see the other guy needing to take a break before recommencing. I have seen a few UFC fights where someone gets poked in the eye and cant fight for 30secs or more.

Anyhow, if you dont train to take a hit (full contact sparring), then your gonna flinch in the real life situation. Therefore, it is not the technique that is wrong, its the person and the way they train.

Grappling has its uses, but real fights are won with strikes.

i agree with reasoning like this i too don't know why you bother

So you are a half decent fighter then please post your fight record for us to be in awe of........

Oh Snap i have watched a few MMA fights can i play too....how about that japanese fighter who get blinded in a no rules match...he still one though using grappling isn,t that funny

No BJJ is not a sport it is a martial art that tests itself under a variety of rules and competitions, maybe you should try it sometime before making comments about it

As for real fights being won by striking this was put to bed back in the 90's by a variety of people...geoff thompson using judo to beat the cr*p out of people on the doors....SBG coaches Paul Sharp and rodney king posting pages on the net of when they and other cops/security guys used suplexs, double legs and various other throwsto end bad situations....hell UFC fighter lee murrey once ended a bar fight over hear by suplexing a guy trying to hit him with a pool cue

[goju]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bFUtRVrvL.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kw...sca0o1_500.gif

why do grappling when you could just walk in a place and do this to a bjj guy!!!

sigh the thing that people like this fail to realize

1. your dirty move may fail.... then what?

2. a competent grappler will be able to control you on the ground AND( this is the most important part folks) be able to dig inot your eyes, pull your hair and other nasty things

why would you assume just because they dont allow those techniques in comps that the grappler wouldnt do it outside of that?

[shawchemical]

Ummm... Muay Thai and bjj ARE specialized systems.


Death in an confrontation is probably more of a possibility today than it was then.

1, death in a confrontation is "probably more of a possibility" ****ing idiot.

[shawchemical]

If anything, a "horizontal fist" is more structurally sound.

Good to see you continue to fail at life.

[shawchemical]

Again, lots of people will disagree and perhaps even take offense to this, but wing chun is a very limited fighting style, since it's based on very close quarter striking, and basically nothing about it has anything to do with fighting in the clinch or on the ground.

Notice that I said nothing about it's limitations from longer ranges than very close standup striking range. Something that I've talked about numerous times on this forum.

Because most (if not all) streetfights are going to close the distance from long to short range very quickly. There are basically no Muhammad Ali type streetfights, or kickboxing type streetfights either. That kind of thing is very, very rare in everyday life.

So for close quarter, standup streetfighting, wing chun can be very good. It has it's limitations (ie.- no clinch or ground material)...but for what it is, it can be very good, depending upon the person using it of course.

But in a ring/cage/mma setting...it's limitations become even more apparent. Not just because the fighters in such events have more room to maneuver, and are doing do so on a perfectly smooth and non-hostile surface - but because they are better trained than the typical guy on the street, who quite often charge in swinging wildly or going for some half-a55ed grab or football tackle.

Not that wing chun doesn't have some good moves to put on a more sophisticated striker, but stories of wing chun street success (and I'm not necessarily doubting the stories)...is often based upon facing the typical non-seriously trained streetfight mentality/abilites coming at you.

The enigma is that wing chun PURE AND SIMPLE...has pluses and minuses that are highly misunderstood.

Discuss....

Do you understand what enigma means victor?? Doesn't sound like it.

[YungChun]

If anything, a "horizontal fist" is more structurally sound.

Agreed if by "structurally sound" you refer to the noise it will make when it breaks..

"Yeah that" indeed.. LOL

There is simply no comparison in structural soundness between the two assuming you understand how to do the VF.. Your assertion should make one question the validity of any and all "facts" you present.

[Ultimatewingchun]

By enigma I meant that wing chun does have something of a reputation for being an effective street art (ie.- realism)...while at the same time being notably absent from being pronounced "the winner" in mma fighting - which is also noteworthy for it's realism.

How it that? Hence, wing chun is a bit of an enigma (mystery).

And then I proceeded to give what I believe are the reasons for this "enigma".

[Dragonzbane76]

The fight should end quickly and not be taken to the ground. If your in the clinch, knee to groin and if one arm is free, claw your opponents eyes.
I sparred a kickboxer out on day release and when he mounted me, i grabbed his nuts. a bit bad for sparring, but i got him to get off me.

seriously???

I have a stunning revelation. why not learn judo or BJJ/JJJ for clinch and grappling instead of relying on eye pokes and groin grabs that might not work at all.

[t_niehoff]

By enigma I meant that wing chun does have something of a reputation for being an effective street art (ie.- realism)...

No it doesn't. That's one of those many myths that WCK (and TCMA) people try to promote about themselves (I don't hear nonWCK people saying it).

And, that myth is built on a false premise -- that there are "street arts" and martial "sports" (the old street vs. sport nonsense). Wrong. There is only what works and what doesn't.

The problem is, however, that lots of stuff "works" (you can sometimes get away with it) at either low levels of intensity or against poorly skilled fighters (scrubs) but fails when under the pressure of very high intensity (power, speed, etc.) and/or against skilled fighters (who are much better at taking advantage of an opponent's weakness).

This is significant because when something "works" in light sparring or "in the street" against a scrub, often the "logical" leap is made that it is good, sound, and will always work. However, whatever it is that worked could just as easily be "junK" (a wrestling term for something that only works at lower levels of competition). The ONLY way to know is to try it at higher levels of competition (intensity and/or against skilled fighters).

Sound fighting technique, skills, etc. work at the highest levels of intensity and against very good fighters. The ONLY way to know if something is sound is by using it at that level.

Therein lies one of the many problems with "concepts" or a conceptual approach btw.

while at the same time being notably absent from being pronounced "the winner" in mma fighting - which is also noteworthy for it's realism.

As I indicated above, this signifies that something you are doing (training, technique, etc.) is fundamentally unsound.

How it that? Hence, wing chun is a bit of an enigma (mystery).

There is no mystery or enigma.

And then I proceeded to give what I believe are the reasons for this "enigma".

How many WCK people go and train with good, proven fighters at MMA or MT gyms? Because if you do not do THAT, there is no possible way you will be able to make your WCK work against them. The WCK people who have been successful in MMA have done that.

If you boxed but never sparred against good, skilled boxers but only against (other) scrubs, and then you tried sparring with good boxers, what do you think would happen? Is there any mystery or enigma about that?

The truth is that we are only as good as our training/sparring partners. So when your training/sparring partners are scrubs, how is there any mystery or enigma as to why you can't hold your own against good fighters?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed if by "structurally sound" you refer to the noise it will make when it breaks..

"Yeah that" indeed.. LOL

There is simply no comparison in structural soundness between the two assuming you understand how to do the VF.. Your assertion should make one question the validity of any and all "facts" you present.

You guys aren't gonna start that old "vertical VS horizontal" crap, are you?

[m1k3]

The fight should end quickly and not be taken to the ground. If your in the clinch, knee to groin and if one arm is free, claw your opponents eyes.
I sparred a kickboxer out on day release and when he mounted me, i grabbed his nuts. a bit bad for sparring, but i got him to get off me.

LOL, you got taken down and mounted by a KICKBOXER!!!

You pull that with a trained grappler he will arm bar you.

[Frost]

[QUOTE=m1k3;1011012]

The fight should end quickly and not be taken to the ground. If your in the clinch, knee to groin and if one arm is free, claw your opponents eyes.
I sparred a kickboxer out on day release and when he mounted me, i grabbed his nuts. a bit bad for sparring, but i got him to get off me.

./QUOTE]

LOL, you got taken down and mounted by a KICKBOXER!!!

You pull that with a trained grappler he will arm bar you.

lets be honest this is a story made up to make himself sound like he knows what he is doing

[SAAMAG]

Sound fighting technique, skills, etc. work at the highest levels of intensity and against very good fighters. The ONLY way to know if something is sound is by using it at that level.

How many WCK people go and train with good, proven fighters at MMA or MT gyms? Because if you do not do THAT, there is no possible way you will be able to make your WCK work against them. The WCK people who have been successful in MMA have done that.

Sooo then here's your logic:

Technique works against people in your class
Technique doesn't work against elite fighters
Therefore technique is junk

While that logic seems sound it is not. If your technique doesn't work against an elite fighter, it's not the technique but moreso the discrepency in skill level between yourself and the elite fighter. That's why you've not been able to do it (yet). You're completely omitting all the other variables which could be inhibiting your ability to apply your wing chun.

The second part of it (whereby you cite that "x" person's wing chun hasn't been tested in mma) -- while there have been successful testings of wing chun in mma, no one's wc has been tested at elite levels in MMA.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van,

If you read carefully what Niehoff is saying, it's this:

"Your wing chun is garbage and won't work against highly skilled mma/mt fighters. But MY wing chun (the same as what Alan Orr does) - that wing chun WILL work against skilled fighters."

The same ol' crap from the biggest fraud/troll on the forum. What do ya' expect?

[Ultimatewingchun]

that someone who feels compelled to repeat what I referenced in my previous post -
HUNDREDS OF TIMES -

is trying, first-and-foremost, to convince himself that what he's saying is true.

Do you remember Fredo from the Godfather part II ?

"I'm smart, Mikey. I'm smart. I'm smart."

That's what we've got going here on this forum with Terence Niehoff.