The Wing Chun Enigma (streetfighting)

[t_niehoff]

Van,

If you read carefully what Niehoff is saying, it's this:

"Your wing chun is garbage and won't work against highly skilled mma/mt fighters. But MY wing chun (the same as what Alan Orr does) - that wing chun WILL work against skilled fighters."

The same ol' crap from the biggest fraud/troll on the forum. What do ya' expect?

No, what I am saying is that NO MATTER WHAT STYLE, ART, ETC. that you practice, or how you view WCK, your skill is determined by the amount of quality sparring you do. And so, YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR SPARRING PARTNERS. Why can Alan's guys compete in MMA? Because he trains with, spars with, etc. good MMA people. You are not going to develop that level of skill (lightly) sparring with your students. If you are not already doing it, you won't be able to do it.

Victor, you can watch all the catch videos that you want, roll with your students, but you will forever suck as a grappler if you don't go train -- spar -- with good grapplers and spend lots of time doing that. That's why I keep telling you to go to a good gym and see.

[t_niehoff]

Sooo then here's your logic:

Technique works against people in your class
Technique doesn't work against elite fighters
Therefore technique is junk

No, my logic is just because something works in your class doesn't make it good or sound. Lots of crap works against scrubs.

While that logic seems sound it is not. If your technique doesn't work against an elite fighter, it's not the technique but moreso the discrepency in skill level between yourself and the elite fighter. That's why you've not been able to do it (yet). You're completely omitting all the other variables which could be inhibiting your ability to apply your wing chun.

You are missing the point. When you train/spar with very good people they will show you not only what things aren't working but you will see very clearly why they are not working. You're not going to see this working with scrubs where you can get almost anything to work.

This is one of the reasons we get better (at any sport or athletic or competitive activity) by sparring, playing against, etc. very good people. You see very quickly that "oh, I don't want to do that again!" And you see the sorts of things that can and do work against them.

The second part of it (whereby you cite that "x" person's wing chun hasn't been tested in mma) -- while there have been successful testings of wing chun in mma, no one's wc has been tested at elite levels in MMA.

Sure it has -- in the gym. No one in WCK has reached that elite level themselves but that doesn't mean they aren't sparring with or training with people of that level.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Concerning how well a particular technique works against an elite fighter. IMO, there is a standard tool kit that you have to have to fight at a high-level. Those are the basics, once you have these basics, opportunities for the other stuff get created. To use another analogy, when people take the dessert to be the main course, that is where all the problems lie.

[YungChun]

The problem is, however, that lots of stuff "works" (you can sometimes get away with it) at either low levels of intensity or against poorly skilled fighters (scrubs) but fails when under the pressure of very high intensity (power, speed, etc.) and/or against skilled fighters (who are much better at taking advantage of an opponent's weakness).

This is significant because when something "works" in light sparring or "in the street" against a scrub, often the "logical" leap is made that it is good, sound, and will always work.

Of course Terence.. This is a binary problem.. There are no shades of gray.. It either works or not, good or no good, skilled or scrub right? If it doesn't work against top fighters then it's crap right?

Okay, so let me pick your sparring partners.. I guarantee none of your $hit will work against them.. So applying your logic then you and your stuff is fantasy fighting nonsense...


The fact is that fighting or defending yourself in the street is a different animal than sparring and competition, different tactics, different dynamics.. Doesn't mean that a good NHB fighter can't be effective in either case but the fact is these are different animals, where different things "work" or not....

Everyone knows about sparring and sparring good people... (twitch)

[HumbleWCGuy]

If someone has:
Never been in more than 1 or 2 street fights, bounced, worked some kind of security that put them in a lot of physical confrontations, or fought in the ring, it's all theoretical speculation.

For people who have never done any of these things, I suggest that they at least take a night job as a bouncer to have some practical experience to open their eyes.

[t_niehoff]

Of course Terence.. This is a binary problem.. There are no shades of gray.. It either works or not, good or no good, skilled or scrub right? If it doesn't work against top fighters then it's crap right?

No.

To try and explain what I mean, let's approach the issue from another angle, OK. How can we know whether something (technique, mechanic, tactic, etc.) is fundamentally sound or not? From some theory? That you can pull it off against a scrub? How can you tell?

And that is a critical question, because we all only have so much time to train -- and if I am training "junk", stuff that will only work to a certain, low level, then I am short-changing myself -- I'm actually training myself to fail. I could instead be focusing on fundamentally sound stuff -- stuff that isn't self-limiting.

So, how do you KNOW? KNOW. Not guess, not speculate, not theorize. KNOW.

There is a couple ways. First, you can see what is actually working at the highest levels and adopt what they do. Or, as a corollary, you can do what things they did to get to that level. Second, by training/sparring with high quality guys, you will learn what sorts of things can work, and sometimes do work (even if you aren't at their level) -- and what things can't possibly work. Crap and junk will never work against them; sound stuff will, even if you aren't as good, at least put you in the game.

Okay, so let me pick your sparring partners.. I guarantee none of your $hit will work against them.. So applying your logic then you and your stuff is fantasy fighting nonsense...

It's not about beating them -- it's about knowing whether what you are doing is fundamentally sound or not. You don' t understand what I am talking about because you haven't experienced it yourself -- training with good people.

Let me use an example. You may get away with blocking and striking at the same time with your students in sparring. Hell, I can do it against low level guys or in light sparring. But, if you spar with a good boxer, you won't be able to pull them off. And, you'll see why. You'll come to understand why they are very low percentage tactics when not attached. You may never see these things working/sparring with scrubs. But with good people, you'll see it right away.

So, you will not only see the problem, understand why it is a problem, but you will know to look for some other, fundamentally sound answer.

And, you'll see what can work. And you will, with practice, be able to do it too.

Another example, there are certain things you MUST do to not be a sitting duck for a double/single leg shoot. You're not going to learn them by having someone who is a scrub shoot singles on you. But, if you train with a very good wrestler, you'll pick them up quickly, and you will know you NEED to do them. Without those fundamental things, you won't have a chance of stopping a good wrestler or someone who just by luck happens to do a good shoot -- and they will take you down more or less at will. When you learn good fundamental skills, you'll find it gets much more difficult for them to take you down, that you can sometimes stop them even when they are much better, etc.

The fact is that fighting or defending yourself in the street is a different animal than sparring and competition, different tactics, different dynamics.. Doesn't mean that a good NHB fighter can't be effective in either case but the fact is these are different animals, where different things "work" or not....

If it is fundamentally sound, it works anywhere. The stuff that "only" works in the "street" is by definition "junk" or "crap".

Everyone knows about sparring and sparring good people... (twitch)

Everyone may know, but hardly anyone does it. I can tell you haven't.

[SAAMAG]

No, my logic is just because something works in your class doesn't make it good or sound. Lots of crap works against scrubs.

No argument there. But that's not what you were saying. At least that's not the way it comes off. You make it sound like unless you're fighting mma elite that you're skills won't be good enough...or that you won't KNOW if your skills are good enough. That if your skills aren't working against an elite fighter they aren't worth anything. I realize that you've elaborated on this point with another response as well...so by your logic if it works sometimes against an elite than it's a retainable technique?

You are missing the point. When you train/spar with very good people they will show you not only what things aren't working but you will see very clearly why they are not working. You're not going to see this working with scrubs where you can get almost anything to work.

This is one of the reasons we get better (at any sport or athletic or competitive activity) by sparring, playing against, etc. very good people. You see very quickly that "oh, I don't want to do that again!" And you see the sorts of things that can and do work against them.

General accepted knowledge and agreed.

Sure it has -- in the gym. No one in WCK has reached that elite level themselves but that doesn't mean they aren't sparring with or training with people of that level.

Soo then you admit that we all here could be training and excelling in our chosen art through sparring in our respective gyms and with our various sparring partners? I thought you always believed that we'd have to be fighting mma elite? You allow validation through sparring in the gym one minute (to validate your ideas) and the next minute it's not worth anything unless you compete (to downplay other's ideas). Which is it??

[shawchemical]

No.

To try and explain what I mean, let's approach the issue from another angle, OK. How can we know whether something (technique, mechanic, tactic, etc.) is fundamentally sound or not? From some theory? That you can pull it off against a scrub? How can you tell?

And that is a critical question, because we all only have so much time to train -- and if I am training "junk", stuff that will only work to a certain, low level, then I am short-changing myself -- I'm actually training myself to fail. I could instead be focusing on fundamentally sound stuff -- stuff that isn't self-limiting.

So, how do you KNOW? KNOW. Not guess, not speculate, not theorize. KNOW.

There is a couple ways. First, you can see what is actually working at the highest levels and adopt what they do. Or, as a corollary, you can do what things they did to get to that level. Second, by training/sparring with high quality guys, you will learn what sorts of things can work, and sometimes do work (even if you aren't at their level) -- and what things can't possibly work. Crap and junk will never work against them; sound stuff will, even if you aren't as good, at least put you in the game.




It's not about beating them -- it's about knowing whether what you are doing is fundamentally sound or not. You don' t understand what I am talking about because you haven't experienced it yourself -- training with good people.

Let me use an example. You may get away with blocking and striking at the same time with your students in sparring. Hell, I can do it against low level guys or in light sparring. But, if you spar with a good boxer, you won't be able to pull them off. And, you'll see why. You'll come to understand why they are very low percentage tactics when not attached. You may never see these things working/sparring with scrubs. But with good people, you'll see it right away.

So, you will not only see the problem, understand why it is a problem, but you will know to look for some other, fundamentally sound answer.

And, you'll see what can work. And you will, with practice, be able to do it too.

Another example, there are certain things you MUST do to not be a sitting duck for a double/single leg shoot. You're not going to learn them by having someone who is a scrub shoot singles on you. But, if you train with a very good wrestler, you'll pick them up quickly, and you will know you NEED to do them. Without those fundamental things, you won't have a chance of stopping a good wrestler or someone who just by luck happens to do a good shoot -- and they will take you down more or less at will. When you learn good fundamental skills, you'll find it gets much more difficult for them to take you down, that you can sometimes stop them even when they are much better, etc.



If it is fundamentally sound, it works anywhere. The stuff that "only" works in the "street" is by definition "junk" or "crap".



Everyone may know, but hardly anyone does it. I can tell you haven't.

For someone who seems to have a reasonable grasp of the English language, it is continually mind-boggling that you can be so stupid. Willful ignorance is the worst kind.

That YOU cannot manage to make something work against "good" people does nto mean that the techniques themselves are not working, merely that YOU cannot make them work, and thus due to your mindset is NOT a problem with you but with the techniques themselves.

The funny thing about things that work on the "street" is that the reason you don't see most of them in the ring is that they work all together too well. Thus, to prevent harm to valuable commodities (the fighters) the competition organisers who create the rules have decided that such strikes are not allowed.

To make the argument that the reason you don't see these techniques in professional competition because they don't work is redundant. You don't see the techniques primarily because use of such things results in losing the fight - a counter productive behaviour.

Specific examples of this are strikes to the back of the head/neck, heel kicks to the kidneys in guard and the downwards elbow strike to the top of the head. We all know that they work, cause serious injury and great potential harm to the receiver of the blow. However, their potential for damage makes them unpopular for the major shows and the possibility of losing a big money drawcard and thus they are prohibited. Another is the North south position. In most competitions, knees to the head are not allowed here. Thus, the rule set manages to make the "best" technique for this position redundant. IF the rule sets were generally indicative of what happens on the street, any person who finds themselves in this position should be immediately recorded as the loser of the fight due to TKO, and the inability to intelligently and adequately defend themselves.

However, if you find yourself being attacked, the only result which matters is do you walk away. You cannot be disqualified for using such targets and strikes.

Training against good opponents is essential to be as good as you can. This is of course not where we disagree. The training methods used by professional athletes for conditioning should probably be taken for what they are, scientifically proven to produce high quality, strong, fast athletes with great endurance.

However, to move beyond this point, the ability to think critically about yourself and what you are doing becomes paramount. Lying about somethings effectiveness becomes counterproductive. This includes the reasons why something hasn't worked.

Blocking and striking at the same time is probably not the issue if you are standing in front of the man and moving a minimal amount. Similarly, just defending and allowing your opponent to dictate what happens in the fight means you will be more vulnerable than if you are counterattacking.

Additionally, some techniques may not work against a scrub who is massive, can take a punch and is very angry, yet they may work against a very good fighter who cannot take a punch, is much smaller or much slower than the protagonist of our hypothetical discussion. The goal is identification or creation of weakness or vulnerability and successful exploitation of that target.

This should imply that the best people will have a variety of techniques and tactics at their disposal. Making things work for you own body and timing means that you are not the slave of a technique or skill, but that you can bend its application to your desire. Your own blinkered and painfully linear view of everything you post about colours your ability to make appropriate conclusions about the things you discuss.

[YungChun]

Or, as a corollary, you can do what things they did to get to that level. Second, by training/sparring with high quality guys, you will learn what sorts of things can work, and sometimes do work (even if you aren't at their level) -- and what things can't possibly work. Crap and junk will never work against them; sound stuff will, even if you aren't as good, at least put you in the game.

Wow so, we should spar with good fighters..? Where do you come up with these fresh new ideas?

It's not about beating them -- it's about knowing whether what you are doing is fundamentally sound or not.

Of course.. Because when you get your azz handed to you by a "good fighter" then you know you're on the right track!! (As opposed to getting your azz handed to you by a poor fighter, in which case then you didn't learn anything..) (twitch)

You don' t understand what I am talking about because you haven't experienced it yourself -- training with good people.

I've sparred and trained with folks that would beat you silly..

Let me use an example. You may get away with blocking and striking at the same time with your students in sparring.

I never advocated this as high %.. However I don't think that all low % moves are disposable..

However, it is you who consistently say essentially that if anyone here had fought with good people we would all agree and do VT your way... You can deny this but then you'd be FOS.

Everyone may know, but hardly anyone does it. I can tell you haven't.

You can't tell jack...

Anyone who doesn't buy any part of your spiel is dealt your ad hominem BS..

When in fact... If you were half as good as you make yourself out to be (and don't give me this: I don't think I'm that good -- BS -- you've made it clear you think you are better than 99.99% of everyone here) Then you would have attended the sparring get together--not back out in a cowardly fashion at the last minute..

The problem being that if you had attended and then had your azz handed to you even once, that your entire life's work on this forum would have ENDED rather unceremoniously right there and then...

[t_niehoff]

Soo then you admit that we all here could be training and excelling in our chosen art through sparring in our respective gyms and with our various sparring partners?

No, not at all. You need to spar since fighting skill only comes via sparring. And certainly you will spar within your WCK group. But you need to seek out good sparring partner -- the best you can find -- since you will only be as good as your sparring partners. Most WCK practitioners suck, including the masters and grandmasters.

Look, if you truly appreciate that (1) fighting skill is directly related to the amount of quality sparring you do and (2) you are only as good as your sparring partners (that quality), then ask yourself, how can they (the masters and grandmasters) be any good? They haven't put in the work -- they haven't sparred and certainly not with good fighters. And I'm talking a minimum of hundreds of hours of quality sparring just to develop competence.

I thought you always believed that we'd have to be fighting mma elite? You allow validation through sparring in the gym one minute (to validate your ideas) and the next minute it's not worth anything unless you compete (to downplay other's ideas). Which is it??

Sparring in the gym IS fighting. What do you think sparring is? It's fighting practice -- you develop your fighting skill by fighting. Sparring is practicing fighting. Just like swimming in a pool is practicing swimming.

[LoneTiger108]

You need to spar since fighting skill only comes via sparring. And certainly you will spar within your WCK group. But you need to seek out good sparring partner -- the best you can find -- since you will only be as good as your sparring partners. Most WCK practitioners suck, including the masters and grandmasters.

Wow! I've read plenty of your posts T (and others) on this thread and I think personally this is the one where you tend to lose many credentials. Obviously others just like slinging sh*t at you, but I like to give everyone a fair hearing!

If fighting 'skills' only come from sparring then I guess strengthening your skin, tendons and bones on a wooden man are not 'skills' that contribute to your fighting?

If I can presume that you never learnt any wooden man, then I can only presume you have never learnt, or even met, any 'masters' of Wing Chun?

This puts most of your posts related to Wing Chun in an ever-growing foggy arena, AND you have quoted kuit too! Quite unbelievable really...

[t_niehoff]

Wow so, we should spar with good fighters..? Where do you come up with these fresh new ideas?

By listening to and training with good fighters. Try it sometime.

Of course.. Because when you get your azz handed to you by a "good fighter" then you know you're on the right track!! (As opposed to getting your azz handed to you by a poor fighter, in which case then you didn't learn anything..) (twitch)

You don't understand what I am talking about because you haven't trained with good people. When I roll with my BB BJJ instructor, for instance, I know there is no way in hell, unless he has a stroke while we're rolling, that I will beat him. But he forces me to do good, sound things just to stay in the game -- if I tried anything unsound or stupid, he's crush me in an instant. He forces me to do things right (soundly) since that is the only stuff that stands a chance. But I can roll with the white belts and get away with just about anything.

You keep thinking in terms of winning or losing (getting your ass handed to you, etc.). That's not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about seeing the soundness of your fundamentals.

I've sparred and trained with folks that would beat you silly..

No you haven't. You wouldn't be saying the crap you are if you had any experience really sparring with good people.

However, it is you who consistently say essentially that if anyone here had fought with good people we would all agree and do VT your way... You can deny this but then you'd be FOS.


You can't tell jack...

Anyone who doesn't buy any part of your spiel is dealt your ad hominem BS..

This isn't an ad hominem attack (before you throw around terms, it helps if you actually know the definition)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

"The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made)."

Whether you've sparred and/or trained with good people (and, btw, I don't mean spar one time but for significant amounts of time) DOES have a direct bearing on the truth or falsity of your view. That is precisely my point.

If you were to spar/train with good fighters, you'd know why, for instance, training with very good folks, the one's who can in your words "hand you your ass", is absolutely essential. Go to a forum where genuine fighters train and pose the question as to whether or not you need to train spar with very good people and see what answers you get.

When in fact... If you were half as good as you make yourself out to be (and don't give me this: I don't think I'm that good -- BS -- you've made it clear you think you are better than 99.99% of everyone here) Then you would have attended the sparring get together--not back out in a cowardly fashion at the last minute..

I never made any claim that I am that good. What I am saying has nothing to do with whether or not I am "good" -- it has to do with what things we all need to do to develop good skills.

What ****es you and people like Victor off is that if what I am saying is true, then you guys haven't put in the work to develop any significant skills.

Look, I am not that good of a ground grappler. I'm not yet a purple belt. But I know from 5 years of grappling experience with very good grapplers the things anyone who wants to be good must do. I see what good grapplers do, what they don't do, etc. While I am on the path to getting better and to one day (hopefully) be a good grappler, this view isn't based on my skill level -- it is based on the experience training with and sparring with good grapplers. This process is the same for any martial art -- whether boxing or MT or judo or WCK.

Your bring up Victor's "party" -- as I told Victor at the time (and these posts I assume are still out there so look them up), I was initially interested but wanted to have good, decent MMA people there that we all could spar with. It makes absolutely no sense for a bunch of WCK people to get together and lightly spar. That is by definition a circle jerk. If you want to make it a learning experience (the only reason I saw for attending), I want to see what things people are doing that actually will work against decent fighters, not against other scrubs. Victor, the guy who won't go within 1000 feet of a MMA gym, not surprisingly wanted to keep it all WCK -- apparently he likes participating in circle jerks. So, instead I went and competed at NAGA. Of course, we've rehashed this many times before.

The problem being that if you had attended and then had your azz handed to you even once, that your entire life's work on this forum would have ENDED rather unceremoniously right there and then...

Dude, I get my ass handed to me every single time I train. Haven't you been listening? That's how you get better.

[t_niehoff]

Wow! I've read plenty of your posts T (and others) on this thread and I think personally this is the one where you tend to lose many credentials. Obviously others just like slinging sh*t at you, but I like to give everyone a fair hearing!

If fighting 'skills' only come from sparring then I guess strengthening your skin, tendons and bones on a wooden man are not 'skills' that contribute to your fighting?

What you are talking about is CONDITIONING, not skills. Running is great dor developing your cardio, but it isn't fighting skill./

If I can presume that you never learnt any wooden man, then I can only presume you have never learnt, or even met, any 'masters' of Wing Chun?

I have learned the dummy form, thank you. It does not develop fighting skill -- you can't develop fighting skill by NOT fighting. Just like you can't develop swimming skill by NOT swimming.

This puts most of your posts related to Wing Chun in an ever-growing foggy arena, AND you have quoted kuit too! Quite unbelievable really...

Many people want to believe that by doing forms, exercises (chi sao), the dummy, etc. that they are developing fighting skill. No. They are learning the movements, etc. of the art but that in only the first step to developing skill. Skill is your ability to use those things successfully in fighting.

If you believe that you have skill, go spar with a good fighter and see.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It sounds to me like you don't want to go someplace and lose without having your, "buddies" there to uphold your honor.

You say that you are not that good on the one hand and now you are telling people essentially, that you would get nothing out of sparring WC guys because they aren't up to your standard.

[t_niehoff]

It sounds to me like you don't want to go someplace and lose without having your, "buddies" there to uphold your honor.

No, I simply don't want to waste my time. Look, Victor had his "party" -- what did anyone come away with? Nothing. It was just a WCK picnic.

You say that you are not that good on the one hand and now you are telling people essentially, that you would get nothing out of sparring WC guys because they aren't up to your standard.

No, I'm saying NO ONE would get anything out of it, even a scrub. And no one did.