Health overhaul to increase costs

[MightyB]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6223147.shtml

"About 6 months later I was on a business trip in Marseille, when I slipped on wet marble and - you guessed it - shattered the same collarbone.

I went to my room as the hotel called the hospital. Ten minutes later two doctors (not EMTs) were in my room with a portable x-ray, pain relief and a ride to the hospital (when they pronounced it re-broken). On the ride, they took my name and address. At the hospital I was trussed up, given another shot and then taken back to the hotel. I needed no insurance, no long forms to fill out - they treated me because that’s what you do when a person is hurt or sick."

[MightyB]

for those of you who care... the US ranks as the 37th best health care system in the world according to the WHO.

[MightyB]

The top ten are France, Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, SIngapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, and Japan.

11-20 are Norway, Portugal, Monaco, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ireland, and Switzerland.

21-30 are Belgium, Columbia, Sweden, Cyprus, Germany, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Morocco, and Canada.

31-40 are Finland, Australia, Chile, Denmark, Dominica, Costa Rica, United States of America, Slovenia, Cuba and Brunei.

41-50 are New Zealand, Bahrain, Croatia, Qatar, Kuwait, Barbados, Thailand, Czech Repubic, Malaysia, and Poland

[MightyB]

"What nation offers the best health care on the globe? Answer: Not the United States.

The U.S. health care delivery system is by far the costliest on the planet, but comparison studies consistently show Americans get second-rate results by nearly every benchmark.

"We're twice as expensive as most other industrialized countries," said Gerard Anderson, professor of health policy and management at the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University.

"But we have outcomes that are typically about average, and we're not improving as quickly as other countries are improving," he said.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/08/23/2009-08-23_top_price_secondrate.html#ixzz0mEdtW8ZP"

[1bad65]

for those of you who care... the US ranks as the 37th best health care system in the world according to the WHO.

As I said last time this was mentioned, do any of those 36 countries with 'better' healthcare systems have an obesity rate higher than we have here in the US?

I'll bet not...

[1bad65]

The U.S. health care delivery system is by far the costliest on the planet, but comparison studies consistently show Americans get second-rate results by nearly every benchmark.

Then why do Canadian citizens who have been denied care up there come here? Why did a Canadian Premier come here just this year for heart surgery? Why do people with unusual/rare conditions come here; like the Elephant Man of China and those Siamese twins a few years ago who had to be separated?

You don't see them going to places like Cuba or Portugal who have 'better' systems do you?

[1bad65]

I will defend socialized medicine because you criticize out of the specter of GOP fear.

Dude, just pipe down if this is gonna be your standard reply. You're not really adding anything to the debate, just rephrasing the same playbook arguments over and over.

I've repeatedly posted links and examples of the shortcomings of socialized medicine. Yet you keep saying I'm just fear mongering.

[MightyB]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-..._b_201521.html

"1. Canadian and European systems are on average 10% of GDP while in 2007 the U.S. cost was 16.2% even though tens of millions were not covered. These escalating costs represent America's biggest competitive disadvantage going forward.

2. Canada's health care system which fully looks after 32 million people costs roughly what the private-sector health insurance companies make in profits in the United States looking after less than half the population for excessive premiums.

3. America's health care system is even more uncompetitive if litigation costs and awards for medical bills are added. One estimate is that this adds another 3% to the 16.2% GDP costs of the American-style health care. In Canada and Europe, medical costs are borne by taxpayers as a whole so there are no court costs and awards necessary.

4. Canada's and Europe's health care systems enhances economic productivity. Workers diagnosed with illnesses can still change employers and be employable because they are not rejected by employers with health benefits due to pre-conditions.

5. Infant mortality is much lower in Canada and Europe than in the U.S.

6. Outcomes with major illnesses, such as cancer and heart disease, are better than in the United States.

7. Longevity is better in Canada and Europe than in the U.S.

8. No emergency is neglected in Canada.

9. Some elective procedures may take longer if compared to blue-ribbon U.S. health care but that's no comparing apples with apples. More appropriately, the overall population's care should be compared and there are tens of millions of Americans who are uninsured or uninsurable.

10. No one in Canada goes broke because of medical bills whereas ARP estimates half of personal bankruptcies are due to unpaid, high medical bills. More Americans go bust or lose their homes due to medical costs than the sub-prime problem.

11. Canadians are able to choose their own physicians and to seek multiple opinions.

12. Canadian doctors and nurses are better trained than American counterparts and U.S. physicians must study for at least a year in order to qualify to practice in Canada.

13. Drugs made and invented in the United States are cheaper in Canada, Europe and Japan because our communal health care means volume discounts and savings passed along to society. Americans are overpaying.

14. Americans are being cheated by a patchwork quilt system where the highest risk people -- veterans, the indigent and elderly -- are insured by governments but the "gravy" or young, healthy people are handed over to private insurance companies."

[MightyB]

Sanjuro Ronin and SimonM what they think about the Canadian health care model since they both live there. We also got a couple of posters from France and the UK. I can tell you that as a gainfully employed and college educated citizen who also happens to be an uninsured father and family man that the current US system is a flat out failure to people like me. I earn too much for assistance but I don't make enough to afford anything. Great thing we have going here. If I need heart surgery... guess what? I don't get it. F@ck you if you think it's my fault. I play by the so called rules. They don't work. The reform bill didn't go far enough. We should have totally socialized medicine.

[MightyB]

Nixon... Yes the Richard Nixon, wanted universal healthcare reform. His plan was a good one. IMO he was a great leader who got the shaft in history.

Google Nixon and Healthcare.

[Pork Chop]

my experiences in japan have been in line with what you've been saying mightyb.
dude fell face first down a flight of stairs, broke a bunch of teeth, foreign exchange student from the States, no insurance, walked right in and got fixed up - no "monumental wait times" or someone deciding he didn't need to have the treatment.
similar experience when people have gotten sick - no waiting like we do in the emergency room in the states, walked in and saw someone in minutes.

i think i'm just done debating with people who think that the world is going to end if we raise taxes a few percentage points (still lower than they've been at other times in history).

if any government agency tried making death camps for old people, do you know how fast the AARP would be up their azz?

anyway, i'm with sanhechuan; I'd rather have a government that was proactive and tried different things, making changes as the realized what was or wasn't working - instead of a government paralyzed by fear of what might happen (but hasn't happened elsewhere).

[David Jamieson]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6223147.shtml

"About 6 months later I was on a business trip in Marseille, when I slipped on wet marble and - you guessed it - shattered the same collarbone.

I went to my room as the hotel called the hospital. Ten minutes later two doctors (not EMTs) were in my room with a portable x-ray, pain relief and a ride to the hospital (when they pronounced it re-broken). On the ride, they took my name and address. At the hospital I was trussed up, given another shot and then taken back to the hotel. I needed no insurance, no long forms to fill out - they treated me because that’s what you do when a person is hurt or sick."

Yes, for acute problems, the european, uk, canadian and a few other systems are unmatched. But for chronic issues? Well, I'd say that although it's expensive, American healthcare is more suitable.

By the time you get treated for a chronic issue you could be dead in Canada as you sit on a waiting list for surgery that will have significant impact on yoru returning health, or waiting for months for an mri that could pinpoint your problem and start a course of action to remedy.

So, if I broke a bone, definitely the care in Canada would be superior.
But if I have an undetermined issue with my bowels, forget it, I could die before anyone does a thing or gets any understanding of what's wrong.

It's not a black and white issue and it's good that it is getting torn to shreds, looked at and so on. There will need to be alterations to the plan I have no doubt.

[mawali]

In USA, anything that someone can make money from is a commodity and that means it goes to the highest bidder. In the rest of the world, at best, it is a combination of profit and social responsibility while saying that in the US, 'social responsibility expoused by a government entity is called fascism or socialism.

All things equal, any country that takes cares of its citizens is one that will make that country strong!

[SnowDog]

Yes, for acute problems, the european, uk, canadian and a few other systems are unmatched. But for chronic issues? Well, I'd say that although it's expensive, American healthcare is more suitable.

By the time you get treated for a chronic issue you could be dead in Canada as you sit on a waiting list for surgery that will have significant impact on yoru returning health, or waiting for months for an mri that could pinpoint your problem and start a course of action to remedy.

So, if I broke a bone, definitely the care in Canada would be superior.
But if I have an undetermined issue with my bowels, forget it, I could die before anyone does a thing or gets any understanding of what's wrong.

It's not a black and white issue and it's good that it is getting torn to shreds, looked at and so on. There will need to be alterations to the plan I have no doubt.

David,

The Reason the U.S. is better about getting people diagnosed with chronic issues really has nothing to do with our health care SYSTEM, but the fact that the U.S. has more specialists and high end equipment (MRI, CAT, PET, etc...) per person than any other country on the planet except Japan. The only difference is in the US we may go into bankrupcy trying to pay for these procedures because of our SYSTEM.

That's why even though Japan has Socialized medicine they actually have shorter wait times than the U.S. and do not have the shortfalls in chronic diagnosis that many other countries with socialized medicine have. It is based on the #s of machines and specialists available to each person rather than the system itself. in the U.S. and Japan roughly 40% of Med school graduates go on to become specialists of some kind, where in most other countries it is only about 10%.

With this in mind if the U.S. went to a socialized system, we would actually be more in line with the Japanese system than we would be with places like Canada or the UK. In Japan the medicine is socialized, but still controlled by Ins companies and private industry that is heavily regulated by the government in regards to both care and cost.

The citizens pay taxes to the government, who inturn pays the private industries to cover and care for the citizens. But, because the govn't puts a leash on these private industries they have much lower costs as not to break the taxpayers who are paying for it.

[1bad65]

All things equal, any country that takes cares of its citizens is one that will make that country strong!

So that means the 36 other countries with 'better' healthcare than we have are all stronger than us, right?