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Thread: Core Taiji Meihua Forms

  1. #1
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    Core Taiji Meihua Forms

    Hello All,
    This might have been answered in a previous post, and if it has, I apologize (please feel free to post a Look-Here-Stupid link). I've done some queries, but couldn't find what I was looking for, even though I thought I had seen it before.

    I was wondering if anyone knows what forms would constitute the Core of Praying Mantis, primarly Taiji Meihua lineage if anyone knows.

    I would fathom that some of the core forms would be

    Lian Jie
    Beng Bu
    Ba zhao
    zhai yao (all)
    fan che (da and xia)
    ** bu chan [thanks Richard]
    Any additions, removals, thoughts?

    Thanks in advance,
    cheers!
    Last edited by iunojupiter; 04-26-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: adding to a list.

  2. #2
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    Add Bu Chan (Catch Cicada) to the list.

    Also remember that, from what I understand, there are factions within TJMH PM. So there may be differences between factions.

    Richard

  3. #3
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    The core forms, or forms which make up the style, which still exist in TJMH would be
    1. Lian Jie
    2. Beng Bu
    3. Ba zhao

    Since that time there has been the addition of Zhai Yao which we can consider to be a core series of forms now.

    Zhai Yao, to a certain extant, are reworkings of older forms which are either gone for good or rarely seen.

    For example Tai Shan Ya Ding (Mount Tai Presses the Top) is thought of as a technique, which it is. But clearly, it was at one time a form. That form lived on in parts of the form 'Central Road Fan Che,' which is not small and large fan che. TSYD also lived on in part of the TJMH version of 3rd Zhai Yao.

    Mantis Catches Cicada. I believe there are two. One is the old and short which I think no longer exists, and the other is a new creation which I suspect was created relatively recently, such as in the past few decades. I would like to know more about any version of this older form.

    The original Mantis Catches Cicada was in a group of 7 very short forms that had been grouped under master Meng Su, not Wang Lang. As far as I know only one of those 7 still exists, which has been preserved by Wah Lum school of Mantis.

    Article on Tai Mountain Crushes the Top

  4. #4
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    Kevin,
    Thank you for the information!
    Why do you believe that there were two Bu Chan and that the original was a shorter form? Do you believe individual patterns were the precursor to our modern idea of "forms"?

    Richard

  5. #5
    Seeing that we are on the subject of Taichi Meihua Mantis, can someone maybe explain the differences between taichi meihua and just meihua. Is there a difference between the two, if so what are they and also are the core forms the same? I seem to find alot on the web about taichi meihua mantis but very little on just meihua mantis.

    I would appreciate anyones response and help to these questions.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    1. Lian Jie
    2. Beng Bu
    3. Ba zhao
    4. Zhai Yao
    My understand is one should train Beng Bu before Lian Jie, and Zhai Yao as the last one. The reason is Lian Jie will require "Seeing the body move but don't see the limbs move" which is difficult to achieve for the beginners.

  7. #7
    Hi Tainan Mantis,

    do you know the name of the small form that you´ve mencioned (from the group of 7) that is preserved in the WL curriculum?
    Does this form has a "Wah Lum" name (like bengbu = big mantis), or is it known by its original name?

    Thanks in advance!

  8. #8
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    Hi Richard,
    I would like to post those mansucripts of the old versions of bu chan and see what you think. I'll do that soon.

    The Wah Lum form is called Little Mantis in America and Iron Door Bolt is the correct translation.

    Fujow73,
    The words Taiji and Meihua were used to describe some ideas in the Zhai Yao forms.

    The original quote

    Layered up like the border mountains giving no road for his hands to enter while he receives injury all over. This is the so called one complete grand ultimate (taiji)!


    Can be found in this article

    Leaking From the Bottom

  9. #9
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    Kevin,
    Thank you for the quick response!
    BTW, I really enjoy reading the articles at your website. Very informative!
    I learned Little Mantis (Iron Door Bolt) a few years ago when swapping forms with a Wah Lum shifu. How does it fit in with the original seven forms? In fact, any background to this form would be appreciated.

    Thanks in advance!

    Richard

  10. #10
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    Hi Richard,
    There are Seven Maneuvers, one of them is Iron Door Bolt.
    Exactly how all of this fits together is hard to say. A lot of time has passed since those days and Mantis has evolved.

    I'll be away from my comp for the weekend. More details later.

  11. #11
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    Smile Thanks to all so far!

    I just want to thank all those that have commented so far. It is nice to see other's thoughts and teachings on the system besides my own.
    Please keep the info coming!

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    Slight change from topic

    To keep this thread going, but on a slightly different subject, how does everyone treat short forms, which I refer to as exercises.
    I imagine that all the different iterations of PM have them, but perhaps not.

    My time in wah lum, we have the first 5 basic exercises, which were only generally 3-5 moves, usually repeated. I have some other exercises my Shifu taught us, and I generally like them for beginners classes.

    How does everyone else treat/feel about short forms or exercises like that.

    Thanks,
    Josh

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by iunojupiter View Post
    To keep this thread going, but on a slightly different subject, how does everyone treat short forms, which I refer to as exercises.
    I imagine that all the different iterations of PM have them, but perhaps not.

    My time in wah lum, we have the first 5 basic exercises, which were only generally 3-5 moves, usually repeated. I have some other exercises my Shifu taught us, and I generally like them for beginners classes.

    How does everyone else treat/feel about short forms or exercises like that.

    Thanks,
    Josh
    Can you give more specific examples of what you are talking about? A video perhaps?

    Richard

  14. #14
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zJCg...eature=related

    That is Wah Lum's 16 hands, which is a beginner short form, which were refered to as exercises.
    Wah Lum had 5 beginner exercises, each focusing on a particular technique, plus short forms like 16 Hands, Little Open Gate.

    I have some others from other PM branches my Shifu taught us, like "Shooting Star", "1 step, 3 punch" and multiple others.

    If that doesn't help, let me know. I'll see if I can find some better video, or I'll just shoot some of myself and post it (shudders).

    Thanks,
    Josh

  15. #15
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    Josh
    you must understand that Wah Lum and its ilk are not traditional mantis. To the best of my knowledge there are no "short" forms in the respect you speak of, at least in traditional mantis.

    Cheers
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

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