a video clip for your viewing pleasure

[SAAMAG]

You are a liar.

How do I know that?

The drill wouldn't have stopped when the guys ran into the mirror, the one guy wouldn't have been racing behind them to keep them from crashing into the mirror, and there would already be cracks in the mirrors.

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

[Knifefighter]

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

No, what he was saying was that they regularly spar full contact and run into the mirrors... and that breaking them and getting stitches was no big deal.

No, you don't stop at padded walls in MMA training. That is part of what the training is about... training off the wall.

[Wayfaring]

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.

No, no they don't.

2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.

3) Mirrors can be fixed.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's my take on Wayfaring's point:

"Many, many wing chun schools seldom do any real serious contact sparring."

***AND I BELIEVE HE'S CORRECT.
.............................

Here's my take on Vankuen's point:

"Mirrors are important to training."

***AND THIS IS ALSO TRUE - although nowhere as important as very frequent all-out sparring.
............................

Here's my take on Knifefighter's point:

"Wing Chun sucks."

"Oh, and eh...(Knifefighter continues)....padding is good because once you run into the wall you can keep going, thereby simulating a real world condition."

***Yeah, Dale, thanks for sharing that.

[SAAMAG]

No, what he was saying was that they regularly spar full contact and run into the mirrors... and that breaking them and getting stitches was no big deal.

No, you don't stop at padded walls in MMA training. That is part of what the training is about... training off the wall.

Yes...you do. Fighting in an MMA gym is not fighting in the ring. If you're sparring, sure you will work where you're at. I said DRILLS stop at walls (and for the record you used the term drills too). So if you're rolling and working on something that doesn't entail a wall and can't because the wall is there, you move. That's what normal people do.

I think is point was clear, but apparently you and I take it differently. I didn't take it as they're breaking mirrors constantly, but rather that if it happens it won't be a big deal.

No, no they don't.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.

My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

Mirrors are in mma gyms as well...guess aaaaallll those owners are stupid too? We have them on one side of the gym and on the other side we have wall padding. You deal with what you have. Not every gym has the luxury of making the sparring area different than any other area. Not to mention that no one has EVER broken one of the mirrors. Then again when rolling we're not flying towards the wall at full blast either, and standup is done in a professional manner...very seldom are people out of control where they're flying all over the place.

And like Dale, my read was different. I took it for what it probably meant.

[Wayfaring]

Mirrors are in mma gyms as well...guess aaaaallll those owners are stupid too? We have them on one side of the gym and on the other side we have wall padding. You deal with what you have. Not every gym has the luxury of making the sparring area different than any other area. Not to mention that no one has EVER broken one of the mirrors. Then again when rolling we're not flying towards the wall at full blast either, and standup is done in a professional manner...very seldom are people out of control where they're flying all over the place.

And like Dale, my read was different. I took it for what it probably meant.

Apparantly in these places you are referring to that are MMA gyms with dedicated areas for sparring, the mirrors are in a DIFFERENT place than the dedicated sparring areas. Right? That was what I was saying.

For smaller MMA gyms like I see who don't have the luxury of a different sparring area, if they have to choose between mirrors and padding, they choose padding.

A cage, or padded walls, allows you the freedom to go harder and use a backstop without worrying whether or not you will kill yourself, cut yourself, or cost yourself $350 in broken glas. Sure when there are tons of people working drills or light sparring it's more contained. But the skills to be able to deal with backstops are part of a realistic sparring environment, not just in MMA, but also in a realistic situation. Learning to pin someone against a backstop and take them down is a necessary skill. So is using a backstop to your advantage to escape a bottom position. You learn neither of those skills against mirrors.

[Matrix]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.

Kenton,
Keep in mind that the orginal poster asked for constructive comments on the video. You can dispute what is "constructive" or not, but the video was posted with the intent of receiving comments. To call "everyone else" who doesn't agree with your point of view "D@mn arm-chair Sifus" is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think?

I would tend to agree with most of the points made by Kevin and Jim, but that's just me.

Peace,
Bill

[SAAMAG]

Apparantly in these places you are referring to that are MMA gyms with dedicated areas for sparring, the mirrors are in a DIFFERENT place than the dedicated sparring areas. Right? That was what I was saying.

For smaller MMA gyms like I see who don't have the luxury of a different sparring area, if they have to choose between mirrors and padding, they choose padding.

A cage, or padded walls, allows you the freedom to go harder and use a backstop without worrying whether or not you will kill yourself, cut yourself, or cost yourself $350 in broken glas. Sure when there are tons of people working drills or light sparring it's more contained. But the skills to be able to deal with backstops are part of a realistic sparring environment, not just in MMA, but also in a realistic situation. Learning to pin someone against a backstop and take them down is a necessary skill. So is using a backstop to your advantage to escape a bottom position. You learn neither of those skills against mirrors.

I agree with what you're saying completely, it (a wall) is a very real thing to contend with. Environment plays a significant role in tactics.

But to straight up call someone a liar when you simply misinterpreted the message is an ******* thing to do. No wonder people get a bad taste when they come to this forum. They get berated by someone who doesn't practice wing chun and only serves up negativity. Regardless of whether his repetitive message is legit, his method is uncalled for.

the guy who posted the vid never said they go around breaking glass...you guys just read between the lines to take it that way, at least I got a completely different message.

[couch]

Kenton,
Keep in mind that the orginal poster asked for constructive comments on the video. You can dispute what is "constructive" or not, but the video was posted with the intent of receiving comments. To call "everyone else" who doesn't agree with your point of view "D@mn arm-chair Sifus" is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think?

I would tend to agree with most of the points made by Kevin and Jim, but that's just me.

Peace,
Bill

I suppose you're right to a degree, Bill. There's constructive criticism and then there's being a jerk - that's what my comment was on. Should have been more specific.

Nothing to worry about I suppose because this thread has now turned into a wall-pad vs. mirror debate. LOL

[wkmark]

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Mirrors of that size are expensive - more expensive than mats, and could shatter causing serious or lethal injury. With limited space that is all the more reason to pad walls.

So for example, how many times in the past year have you personally crashed into a mirror?

Personally in the past year, i have crashed into the mirror enough times to know that if i backed up to the wall, i better start moving in another angle than to stand there and take a beating.

Mirrors are easier to set up and to get HERE in HK.... paddings are harder to come by. Sure we would LOVE to have full padding like the ones in the States and other gyms, please feel free to donate. =)

[wkmark]

Agree with most of this..

Would like to see more contact, or any real contact, power release, FANSAO. If you have trouble doing certain moves, then slow it down review what you did and work on doing what you WANT to be able to do.. The do that slower and under less resistance with some reps..

Remember that long range slapping and out of range strikes will not translate to real fighting very well if at all.

Thanks you for your comments and views. What we are doing in this is controlled "Gwoh Sau" trying to move in to center line...

I do understand the long range issues.. it is something that we are working on using boxing gloves, MMA gloves as well as full face mask.

[wkmark]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.

Thank you.

[wkmark]

Wing Chun people can argue about anything......including mirrors. LOL

Yes, I was surprised by the mirror VS padding comments as well.

[wkmark]

Same crew doing these vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9jCMDnrMM

No footwork on the planet will keep in range if your opponent decides to back away or change the angle if it's big enough. A fight/spar/goh sau is chaotic to say the least.

That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack. Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

But what about a Muay Thai practitioner? I TKD expert who wants to back away all the time and pick you apart? WC as a system and as Chi Sau traditionally goes doesn't teach us an outside game at all. Need to look at the long range weapons contained within the system (Jab/Cross/Hook/Uppercut) in order to pick the 'patience-runner-type' fighter apart and get into a range in a blip before they back away again.

I think these clips are great. The angling footwork is good and both parties are attacking - not trying to stick to each others wrists like glue.

Thank you for your comments and views. Yes developing Long range weaspons and patience -runner type fighter is something that we are also working on.

[Matrix]

Nothing to worry about I suppose because this thread has now turned into a wall-pad vs. mirror debate. LOL

I leave that debate to the experts. Thanks.