Wing Chun Forum Poll:

[mun hung]

quote:
The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...

None of the above.

Too complicated.

Just one punch.......

Simple. Direct. Powerful. Beautiful.

I guess we'll have to meet up one of these days so that you can show me what you mean.

We're both in NYC.

Thanks for trying to explain your side.

- P

[YungChun]

quote:
The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...

None of the above.

Too complicated.

Just one punch.......

Simple. Direct. Powerful. Beautiful.

I guess we'll have to meet up one of these days so that you can show me what you mean.

We're both in NYC.

Thanks for trying to explain your side.

- P

That's just it.. You haven't been following the issue.. It's not "my side"...or even my thread... The issue is not about an abstract idea of a single strike.. It's about the fighting methods of VT... and supposed longer reach of certain strikes............

[Emeraldphoenix]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

***YOU'RE "limited" experience is quite a universal one, actually. Wing Chun is a close quarter striking system, and the whole "to shoulder or not to shoulder"....or the..."one punch or many" debate that's been going on is reflective of that experience.

The longer range punches used in boxing like leads, crosses, round punches, and overhands....and certain longer range and arching/round kicks (because of the footwork and the shoulder extension used in those kinds of strikes) do cause problems...

since it's a longer zone/distance being used than the more shoulders-squared-up-parallel-to-each-other movement used in wing chun.

And the emphasis on the main centerline (and attacking the center) emphasized at longer ranges can also be problematical when not in very close.

Yes, wing chun punching in the classical sense will use some shoulder torque, but the emphasis on the waist and elbow source of power limits the amount of shoulder torque used (as does the wing chun footwork and basic structural alignment)...

and that limitation in the amount of shoulder torque (and the corresponding boxing-like footwork)...or should I say, non-use of such things...is the reason why wing chun fighting requires a certain close range zone.

Many people say you can make up for this with your wing chun cutting and angling footwork and timing....but I've yet to see a serious matchup of real good boxing skills and wing chun wherein the wing chun fighter got the better of the situation without doing some of the above mentioend (non-classical) wing chun boxing/kickboxing-like things - when not in close. AND TO HELP GET CLOSE.

Hence the "charge" made so often that wing chun sparring/fighting looks like some form of boxing, kickboxing, or JKD.

My contention is that, in order to be successful, at certain ranges it will have to look like that - against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type...regardless of how knowledgeable and skilled the wing chun guy is - at wing chun.

Unless of course you want to do these boxing/kickboxing-like things and still say it's wing chun.

[SnowDog]

I'm going with A -

Not only do I think it could add to Wing Chun, but being exposed to it helps when trying to fight against it.

I think this is true with any art

[Vajramusti]

Victor has held to his position for quite some time, which his ok with me. But no one speaks for all of wing chun.

IMO- wing chun is adaptable to many circumstances- because the wing chun person is the key-the
art is just available for development...

if someone is interested in boxing or wrestling or bjj or jj to satisfy their own curiosity- I see no problem-it does not tarnish wing chun kuen.

If someone( a beginner) does not have a good wing chun teacher- I have always held the position that if there is a great teacher of some other style available- the person would benefit in learning from that teacher.Wing chun is not the only way. .. but it is for me a pretty darn good way...and one's understanding and skills evolves with time.

And non wing chun trolling and using bad wing chun as examples -are just straw man time wasting arguments in some of the threads in KFO...

The art is just fine- an individual can fail by their own lack of understanding or disciplined practice.

Of course- when the opportunity is there, without breaking the law- one should test what one knows against representatives of other styles and in other occasions by choice or circumstance.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

And if someone has had a good wing chun teacher, or perhaps even two of the best - what then?

Or maybe more than two?

Joy is certainly entitled to his view, and so far in the poll most voters agree with him. But again, I've yet to see any real life (or video) of some fight, or sparring, or tournament wherein someone with some serious boxing skills (doesn't even have to be a pro - but someone who clearly has some real good boxing skills)...lost...to a wing chun guy...

without that wing chun guy using some form of boxing or kickboxing as part of what he was doing.

NEVER.

And I've been around this game for 35 years now.

And I'm discounting any serious mis-matches when the wing chun guy may have towered over the other guy in height, weight, or reach.

Apples-to-apples.

HAVE NEVER SEEN IT.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The problem you run into here is that Wing Chun was not developed to fight against Wing Chun. In training we usually have other Wing Chun people to work with. It can be very difficult to fight or defend against if you are using Wing Chun because you both know the drill. The result is that both parties get off into the Chi Sao game and that is as far as they go. When first you come up against a person that wants to box or just plain old fist fight you will have trouble dealing with him because you have not trained for that. This I think is where most WC people get into trouble. You have to use it the way it was developed to use, and you are not going to do that if you spend your training days doing Chi Sao with your training partner. A regular figher will normally do something similar to boxing. Maybe a kick now and then. He will have no idea about trapping and such, and once you make contact you can usually own him. You have to be extremely aggressive however, and it helps to train hard toward that.

[mun hung]

The problem you run into here is that Wing Chun was not developed to fight against Wing Chun. In training we usually have other Wing Chun people to work with. It can be very difficult to fight or defend against if you are using Wing Chun because you both know the drill. The result is that both parties get off into the Chi Sao game and that is as far as they go. When first you come up against a person that wants to box or just plain old fist fight you will have trouble dealing with him because you have not trained for that. This I think is where most WC people get into trouble. You have to use it the way it was developed to use, and you are not going to do that if you spend your training days doing Chi Sao with your training partner. A regular figher will normally do something similar to boxing. Maybe a kick now and then. He will have no idea about trapping and such, and once you make contact you can usually own him. You have to be extremely aggressive however, and it helps to train hard toward that.

These are very true words. Fighting drills must be done against other arts and not our own.

[mun hung]

That's just it.. You haven't been following the issue.. It's not "my side"...or even my thread... The issue is not about an abstract idea of a single strike.. It's about the fighting methods of VT... and supposed longer reach of certain strikes............

Actually.... Vankuen and I were discussing the differences in shoulder usage between boxers and typical Wing Chun and not the fighting ideology behind it. He even posted videos to demonstrate this. We were talking about the punch and it's shoulder involvement and that was it. No need to discuss this further unless you would like to do it in person (no threat by this).

No worries. I understand where you're coming from now.

Peace.

- P

[YungChun]

Actually.... Vankuen and I were discussing the differences in shoulder usage between boxers and typical Wing Chun and not the fighting ideology behind it. He even posted videos to demonstrate this. We were talking about the punch and it's shoulder involvement and that was it. No need to discuss this further unless you would like to do it in person (no threat by this).

No worries. I understand where you're coming from now.

Peace.

- P

Actually the whole forum have been discussing these issues for quite some time..

In the end if you understand VT facing, and using the hands together vs turning/shoulder then IMO it's clear that VT does both...of these but not really like a boxer..

You are welcome to come work out, I am always looking for workout partners.. Simply PM me...

[mun hung]

Actually the whole forum have been discussing these issues for quite some time..

In the end if you understand VT facing, and using the hands together vs turning/shoulder then IMO it's clear that VT does both...of these but not really like a boxer..

You are welcome to come work out, I am always looking for workout partners.. Simply PM me...

I've seen this topic comes up a lot over the years also. We've had some heated debates over facing. Do you train in a school setting?

- P

[shawchemical]

***YOU'RE "limited" experience is quite a universal one, actually. Wing Chun is a close quarter striking system, and the whole "to shoulder or not to shoulder"....or the..."one punch or many" debate that's been going on is reflective of that experience.

The longer range punches used in boxing like leads, crosses, round punches, and overhands....and certain longer range and arching/round kicks (because of the footwork and the shoulder extension used in those kinds of strikes) do cause problems...

since it's a longer zone/distance being used than the more shoulders-squared-up-parallel-to-each-other movement used in wing chun.

And the emphasis on the main centerline (and attacking the center) emphasized at longer ranges can also be problematical when not in very close.

Yes, wing chun punching in the classical sense will use some shoulder torque, but the emphasis on the waist and elbow source of power limits the amount of shoulder torque used (as does the wing chun footwork and basic structural alignment)...

and that limitation in the amount of shoulder torque (and the corresponding boxing-like footwork)...or should I say, non-use of such things...is the reason why wing chun fighting requires a certain close range zone.

Many people say you can make up for this with your wing chun cutting and angling footwork and timing....but I've yet to see a serious matchup of real good boxing skills and wing chun wherein the wing chun fighter got the better of the situation without doing some of the above mentioend (non-classical) wing chun boxing/kickboxing-like things - when not in close. AND TO HELP GET CLOSE.

Hence the "charge" made so often that wing chun sparring/fighting looks like some form of boxing, kickboxing, or JKD.

My contention is that, in order to be successful, at certain ranges it will have to look like that - against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type...regardless of how knowledgeable and skilled the wing chun guy is - at wing chun.

Unless of course you want to do these boxing/kickboxing-like things and still say it's wing chun.

Proof you just don't get it.

[Hardwork108]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

REAL wing chun covers all ranges but emphasizes the closer ones. The WC (and Chow Gar) style/mentality that I have been exposed to would love to be faced with high kickers and "round punchers". In fact some of these techniques are seen as "weak".

I believe that the problem with this thread (as interesting as it may be) is that it uses incomplete Mc Wing Chun as taught in over 95% of schools out there as a base for its Poll.

IMHO there is no genuine kung fu style out there which haveing evolved through wars and turmoils in the hands of real masters, will suddenly be defeated because the opponent suddenly threw a hook punch or a high kick at its practitioners.

IMHO, these things only happen in Mcdojo land and we all live in it. That is why one must be very choosey as to where one trains their kung fu.

A few of us have been lucky but most of us haven't, and that is how the cookie crumbles in Mcdojo land and that is why polls like this have so many wrong answers by people, including those who will claim expertise in Wing Chun (or even other kung fu styles).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe that the problem with this thread (as interesting as it may be) is that it uses incomplete Mc Wing Chun as taught in over 95% of schools out there as a base for its Poll." (Hardwork)

***Ah yes, the old "your wing chun is incomplete and therefore you can't make it work" argument. You gotta love that one. It's been around a long time and has still has a nice ring to it.

Or, of course, this one: "GOOD wing chun won't have to add any.........."(fill in the blank).

Please show me a vid of someone from that 5% group getting the better of a real good boxer (doesn't have to be a pro) without adding something to his wing chun...something that might make him susceptible to the charge that "he looks like some form of boxer/kickboxer/JKD guy - and not purely a wing chun guy.
.............................................

"IMHO there is no genuine kung fu style out there which having evolved through wars and turmoils in the hands of real masters, will suddenly be defeated because the opponent suddenly threw a hook punch or a high kick at its practitioners." (Hardwork)

***Did you say "suddenly threw a hook punch"? Did you really say that? Have to seriously wonder if you've ever done any fighting/sparring against someone with legit boxing skills. The hook is always set up by something. And anyone who just "suddenly" throws one is not a good boxer.