Wing Chun Forum Poll:

[SavvySavage]

I vote for choice A.

But doesn't have to boxing. First you develop a base in a style...then you start getting bored...or maybe you don't think you're thy good. So you decide to attend a seminar or a class in another school. This school teaches something totally different from your wing chun. You practice those moves for a while and you notice(pay attention because here comes the most important part) that you feel ALIVE. You feel passionate about your martial art again. When you work out with your old classmates you're moving slightly differently and they comment, "Hey, SavvySavage, something is weird about what you're doing. How come I can't hit you the same way as usual?". Trying something new makes you motivated. You then combine the new with the old Like Optimus Prime combining with Megatron to form Supertron. I'm not a transformers geek but the analagy works. This same situation can also apply to visiting another wing chun school.

The negative about this situation is WHEN the person comes back and starts spouting the new philosophy he learned at the other school like everything he learned prior was BS. That's wrong and shortsighted.

I can't believe I'm about to say this. Seven years ago if I saw a comment like the one I'm about to type I'd go nuts and type back an angry reply to rebuke it. This is so funny. Here it goes: If pure wing chun is so good than how come none of the pure wing chunners ever put up videos showing this so called pure wing chun during SPARRING?!? It NEVER happens. The pure wing chunners are talking up a good game but it's all intellectual bs. I sound like Ray Pina! The people I'm talking about are happy to put up vids of static drills that only work when the attacker is cooperative. In that case I could "show" that monkey boxing works.

I'm shocked that I just said the above but this is where my training has brought me. Show a "pure wing chun" sparring vid please and shut us all up.

I really likes the vids of Victor. It showed how the human body moves when under pressure. I say it's impossible to make the body totally move in a stylized wing chun way(or any traditional Chinese style for that matter).

[Pacman]

really depends on what you define as boxing skills.

bobbing and weaving? -- too much of that is anti wing chun for various reasons

hooks? -- i guess some wing chun lineages already have this.

its hard to say what "wing chun" is or is not, because everyones wing chun is vastly different.

id say some lineages definitely need to add boxing skills, for the reasons of reach and footwork that we have discussed.

other lineages do not have this issue.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing Chun is driven by different concepts and principals than boxing. If you incorperate boxing into Wing Chun you will have to alter those concepts and principals. If you incorperate Wing Chun into Boxing it will require you to alter the concepts and principals here too. What makes each of these skills so effective will no longer be there and something is lost, making each of them less effective in their own right. Every fighting system is developed upon certain concepts and principals, and by mixing and matching them you alter them to the point that they no longer have the advantages that they were designed to give you. Like in MMA, you can mix them in ways that this can not happen. You can do boxing as a stand up, switch to grappling, or jiujitsu if you choose, but you can not mix them as a style or you lose them all. If a person wants to do Wing Chun as their stand up It would be fine I think, but not with boxing style mixed in with it. You can switch to any other fighting system at will. If you get taken down, do jiujitsu. Whatever stand up you decide on, keep it true to concept and principal so that you can take advantage of what it offers, but you can also train in other fighting systems as well. I do Japanese Jiujitsu as well, but I keep them seperate. I did a lot of boxing as a kid at our local boys club. Boxing is ok for a stand up fighting system if a person trains it and keeps it up, but it requires a lot of training usually. And being that I have done lots of boxing I know well that it would suffer if it were to incorperate Wing Chun principals into it. Same with Wing Chun.

[k gledhill]

vt ------- B

[mun hung]

Vankuen - totally agree with you. Thanks.

[YungChun]

What do you not understand?

In short...you roll the shoulders forward (follow through) on your punches in boxing, and in wing chun you keep them relaxed and in line with the body i.e. you don't "follow through" with the shoulders in [most] wing chun.

Of course there's nothing to stop anyone from extending the shoulders with VT strikes, right?

The shoulder is used in any punch of course, but how much you extend either by "rolling the shoulder" or turning the body, IMO is simply up to the person.. One simply needs to be aware of the limitations of whatever is used..

For the most part IMO any small difference of reach is going to be negligible and the fighter will have to be able to move (the body) effectively to get the job done..

[shawchemical]

Not sure if you need to ADD boxing as much as be exposed to it.
But, there is no doubt that boxing is an effective form of fighting and I am sure there are a few things that ANY MA can take from boxing to make their game better.

This sums it up.

Being exposed to the ways and angles which different combat systems approach combat and striking is essential.

However, not because you need to add their techniques to your game, but to really understand where their weaknesses are and to be able to exploit them.

[mun hung]

quote:YungChun
Of course there's nothing to stop anyone from extending the shoulders with VT strikes, right?

The shoulder is used in any punch of course, but how much you extend either by "rolling the shoulder" or turning the body, IMO is simply up to the person.. One simply needs to be aware of the limitations of whatever is used..

I actually disagree with this unless I'm misunderstanding something. I don't really believe it's a choice to use your shoulder or not. You should always punch with the shoulder extended from any position you take to maximize your power. Every punch should be as powerful as you can make it.

[YungChun]

I actually disagree with this unless I'm misunderstanding something. I don't really believe it's a choice to use your shoulder or not. You should always punch with the shoulder extended from any position you take to maximize your power. Every punch should be as powerful as you can make it.

I refer to what was posted as "different" between the typical Western Boxing use of the shoulder and the typical VT use of the shoulder.. (plus other elements) Most would say there are differences between the two mechanics in play.

Some folks see these things as do or don't.. I see it as do as you need to.. IOW I can maintain my VT striking with or without WB use of shoulder, with or without turning/blading, etc...

[mun hung]

Thanks for replying. I do understand your frame of thought and I also understand that you have a choice of what kind of punch you want to execute.

I just believe differently - I try not to waste punches, so I make every one worth the effort. Why hit someone 5 or 6 times when I can do it with 2 or 3? I've got places to go, people to meet.

[YungChun]

Thanks for replying. I do understand your frame of thought and I also understand that you have a choice of what kind of punch you want to execute.

I just believe differently - I try not to waste punches, so I make every one worth the effort. Why hit someone 5 or 6 times when I can do it with 2 or 3? I've got places to go, people to meet.

Not so sure..

The issue, which is not one I created, is really about facing. If you maintain facing you can't do the mechanic folks are referring to with the WB shoulder/rotation/blading..

So you have a choice either way which gets the emphasis..max rotational power or max facing.. It depends on what you need to do.

[kung fu fighter]

Wing Chun is driven by different concepts and principals than boxing. If you incorperate boxing into Wing Chun you will have to alter those concepts and principals. If you incorperate Wing Chun into Boxing it will require you to alter the concepts and principals here too. What makes each of these skills so effective will no longer be there and something is lost, making each of them less effective in their own right. Every fighting system is developed upon certain concepts and principals, and by mixing and matching them you alter them to the point that they no longer have the advantages that they were designed to give you.

I couldn't have said it better!

[mun hung]

Hi YungChun, what I was originally referring to was the mechanics of a single punch which has nothing to do with facing unless you're talking about the mechanics of the punch at different facing angles. I'm not even talking about applications here. Just a punch.

I was taught to create more power through extending the shoulder forwards in every punch. I was also taught to never hammer downwards in punching. A straight linear movement driven from the elbow creates the most power, efficiency and when backed by the shoulder - stability. Not preaching - just my take on things.

Thank you.

[kung fu fighter]

It is my opinion that one needs to fully understand/master a style by grasping the essence before he decides to make any change/modifications or alteration in any way.

Here is something I got from Yuen Kay San wing chun sifu Tomas Wong's website

"My teacher says sticky hands is a fragmented part of Wing Chun training. There is more to Wing Chun than just that. As a result, Wing Chun has gotten a bad reputation for only looking good but with no practicality. That's why people try to mix it with Muay Thai or some other hard style of boxing when it comes to real fight training.

Totally incorrect.

Everyone who practices martial arts, has had a few fights, or is fairly intelligent when they start martial arts always gets the idea to take the best stuff from every style and create their own personal superstyle. In fact this is how martial arts evolves. But most people are not qualified to do this for one reason. In order to get the best from every style you practice requires years of training. But most people study only short while, or even worse they study for years but never fully grasp the principles and never master the style. So when they take from the style they only end up taking a few moves or techniques; never carrying with them the spirit, the essence of the style.

They dont get "the best stuff".

In our family one of our founders, Fung Siu Ching, incorporated Tai Chi grappling into our Wing Chun. Many people practice some form of Tai Chi and some form of Wing Chun and try to mix the two. So what makes ours different?

Well, Master Fung was well known to be a very experienced general, marshall and bounty hunter for the Qing. He had real hand to hand combat skill for most of his life. He knew Tai Chi grappling probably better than he knew his wife. It was in him, it was a part of him. A soft, internal style principle that is our Kung Fu is internal--its in your soul, your DNA. Many readers frown on the Wing Chun and Tai Chi relationship, and confuse us with some of the masters who add Tai Chi technigues into their Wing Chun techniques like adding apples and oranges together."

[YungChun]

Hi YungChun, what I was originally referring to was the mechanics of a single punch which has nothing to do with facing unless you're talking about the mechanics of the punch at different facing angles. I'm not even talking about applications here. Just a punch.

I was taught to create more power through extending the shoulder forwards in every punch. I was also taught to never hammer downwards in punching. A straight linear movement driven from the elbow creates the most power, efficiency and when backed by the shoulder - stability. Not preaching - just my take on things.

Thank you.

The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...not about an abstract idea of a single strike.