Wing Chun Arrogance

[mun hung]

The art of Wing Chun probably has one of the most loyal followings from it's many practitioners. If we could, we would all probably have a little "WC" placed somewhere on our tombstones. We all have an undeniable thirst for knowledge - but also think we know everything already. The reason why I bring this up is because I've been on this discussion forum for about 10 years now and everytime I come around to check things out - I see the same thing over and over again. People arguing over their superiority and knowledge. I would swear that WC was a cult following.

IMHO - Wing Chun people are too arrogant to learn anything new - especially from other WC groups. They would rather go incorporate grappling, boxing, stick fighting and ballet into what they know instead. Why is that? If everyone on this board pooled all their practical knowledge of Wing Chun together - it could almost replicate how this style was started in the first place. Whatever worked best was used.

I met a pratitioner from William Cheung's WC lineage last night and instead of the old "my Wing Chun is better than yours" he watched our class, we discussed our differences and parted with a warm handshake. (of course my WC was superior - LOL) But anyway, it was a pleasant experience for both. We kept an open mind the entire time.

There will be an open kung fu tournament going on in NYC in June. I plan on going with possibly a few of my kung fu brothers just as spectators. If anyone is interested in going and possibly meeting up with us - let me know.

Here's the information I received:

It is our pleasure to invite your school to participate in the 2010 US Open Martial Arts Championship to be held on June 6th, 2010 in New York City. This is the only Chinese Martial Arts competition offered in the New York City and New York State Area. Our competition will have competitors from all over the United States, and competitors and renowned martial artists from China and Europe. Our purpose for hosting this competition is to strengthen the Chinese martial arts community, to provide a friendly social environment for martial artists to exchange knowledge and make friends, and to improve the awareness of Chinese Martial Arts in general.

The 2010 US Open Martial Arts Championship is divided into Long Fist division, Northern Style division, Southern Style division, Internal Style division, Light Contact Sparring division, Taichi Push Hands division, and Chi Sao division.Our competition is held at Queens College, New York City on June 6th, 2010. This is a prime location with easy access to different types of transportations (bus, subway, railroad, and airports) and it’s only 20 minutes from Manhattan.

The participation of your school is vital to the long term growth and success of the Chinese martial arts community and your school in particular. With awards received from competing, it will strengthen your students’ dedication and determination to your system, improve their skill levels, and increase the spirit and reputation of your school. Last year’s 2009 US Open Martial Arts Championship was particularly successful with over 200 US and international competitors. We would like to continue our success and we hope to invite your school to be part of our success. If your school has participated in the 2009 competition, we sincerely thank you for your participation and support.

For more detailed information about the 2010 US Open Martial Arts Championship, please visit our website at www.usopenmartialarts.com. If you have any questions about the competition, please contact us via email at usopenma@gmail.com.

[mun hung]

I hope all you Traditional Wing Chun people out there weren't offended by my joke about being superior. It was purely in jest. Just wanted to clarify.

[anerlich]

Wing Chun hardly has the franchise on this sort of arrogance. It's pretty common to most TMA's. I have friends that are long time practitioners of two strands of Kyokushin, and they have the same issues.

Most of this stuff comes from recent history and marketing. The YM lineage wars fostered by William Cheung and Leung Ting. A sh*tload of arrogant and immature behaviour on both sides there which literally went on for decades.

Some more recent marketing strategies by Benny Meng and others with regard to HFY and, later, Black Flag, inevitably caused another sh*tload of internet vituperation. I'll probably cop some flak for saying that, but it did happen.

All this goes on at a local level too. Some years ago a senior WC guy of one lineage on AUS began shooting his mouth off and making disparaging comments about other lineages. One of his WC contemporaries put him in hospital.

Some of my WC classmates have even met with rude treatment when they attended another TWC branch.

Most of these guys would love to see a united WC, as long as theywere seen as the logical head of the system and all the respect and $$ flowed to them.

The culture of TCMA unfortunately is too often one of trying to lift oneself up by treading on the heads of one's peers, especially when money is involved.

I started martial arts as a student of an eclectic practitioner whose background included Goju Ryu, JJJ, TWC (before it was TWC), Choy Li Fut, Northern Sil Lum and a smattering of other arts. He and his contemporaries basically had to take what they could get, even doing stuff like going down to the docks in Adelaide to meet Japanese ships, showing the sailors around the town in exchange for whatever MA knowledge those guys might have had. No going to your local KF school and plonking down your cash, those places didn't exist.

I took up TWC after five years of that and five of IMA, not because I felt any allegiance to WC but because I though my instructor was the best guy around at the time.

I still can't see the point of trying to connect WC schools. Loyalties should be to individuals or organisations, not styles. And I am no purist - I'm not trying to "add to WC", or "make WC better" by cross-training in other arts. Those arts interest me and I want to learn them. IMO there's more point making friends and working out with the guys in your area who do karate or BJJ or boxing or CLF, rather than linking up with people you're unlikely to meet in the flesh who do WC.

"Stylistic purity" is not something I care about. Specialisation is for insects.

My instructor is regularly described as one of the better WC practitioners in AUS and sometimes the world, but he also had a long and successful kickboxing career, and recently attained a black belt in Kyokushin and got his brown belt in BJJ a while ago. He's also had some success training students for kicboxing and MMA bouts.

I do train regularly with a high level WC practitioner from another YMWC school. We are both purple belts at the same BJJ school.

The tournament sounds interesting. But in two weeks I'll be referreeing at a BJJ tournament with different schools meeting from all over the state. Getting these people together is never a problem. It'd be nice if WC was the same, but because meeting up and making friends in BJJ is so much easier, why would I bother?

[Wayfaring]

Nice post, Andrew.

Some more recent marketing strategies by Benny Meng and others with regard to HFY and, later, Black Flag, inevitably caused another sh*tload of internet vituperation. I'll probably cop some flak for saying that, but it did happen.

No flak from me over that statement - it's relatively accurate.

[mun hung]

Hi Andrew, thanks for taking the time to give me your unbiased account of Wing Chun politics. I've really missed it.

I did hear about the Meng/HFY/Black Flag stuff that was going on, but paid it little mind. I'm glad I missed it. Hope it worked out.

Not really trying to connect Wing Chun schools - just trying to figure out how some of them think and why. Not trying to incorporate boxing or anything else for that matter in my WC. But ALWAYS want to be aware of their strengths and tactics. I've taken several MA styles myself through the years and know better than to underestimate anyone or any style.

I'll be the first one to admit that I've been arrogant in the past. I've also gotten myself into a bit of trouble in the past visiting other WC schools and meeting with some practitioners here and there during my discovery stage several years ago. I just wanted people to demonstrate to me how their WC worked in a practical sense. Some were cool some definitely weren't. People get p!ssed off when you force them off of their armchairs. Oh well......

[wkmark]

Hi Andrew, thanks for taking the time to give me your unbiased account of Wing Chun politics. I've really missed it.

I did hear about the Meng/HFY/Black Flag stuff that was going on, but paid it little mind. I'm glad I missed it. Hope it worked out.

Not really trying to connect Wing Chun schools - just trying to figure out how some of them think and why. Not trying to incorporate boxing or anything else for that matter in my WC. But ALWAYS want to be aware of their strengths and tactics. I've taken several MA styles myself through the years and know better than to underestimate anyone or any style.

I'll be the first one to admit that I've been arrogant in the past. I've also gotten myself into a bit of trouble in the past visiting other WC schools and meeting with some practitioners here and there during my discovery stage several years ago. I just wanted people to demonstrate to me how their WC worked in a practical sense. Some were cool some definitely weren't. People get p!ssed off when you force them off of their armchairs. Oh well......

Every couple months we invite other WC school/ branches to come to our place to have an exchange. Last month we had 8 different schools. Some came only to watch, some came to interact with others and perhaps learn from each other. There were some that came wanting to do more than exchanging.

If you think WC politics is bad overseas.. It's even WORSE in HK. But slowly we are trying to get other WC branches to open up and exchange ideas and skills. We all want to see how WC work in a practical sense and we are more than happy to share. Unfortunately some schools train behind extremely closed doors/ mind for that matter and there is just nothing you can do about that.

[mun hung]

I can only imagine how bad it must be over there. How many different WC schools are there in HK? My SiFu is there right now. When I visit HK one of these days - I'll look you up...for dim sum!

[duende]

Andrew has had an amazing wit here on KFO, as well as a highly rational non-biased perspective that I for one have grown to appreciate over the years.

Especially when things get heated.

This last post his of is yet another example of his good character.



FWIW,

I actually believe we all would get along quite well in person. What you see here so often is simply a disconnect in the art of communication due to this medium we are working with. Compound that with hearsay, misunderstanding, and ego.. and you get all out battles.

Some go on for years and just refuse to die no matter how hard some of us try to put 'em down.

With that said, I've been around the world enough to know that for the most part... the people here are actually pretty alright.

And if I ever get the pleasure of meeting any of you in person, the beer is on me.

Good training to all.

[wkmark]

I can only imagine how bad it must be over there. How many different WC schools are there in HK? My SiFu is there right now. When I visit HK one of these days - I'll look you up...for dim sum!

There are SOOOO many different WC schools here in HK. From the smaller individuals teaching out of hobbies to those teaching for a living. Do you mind letting me know who your Sifu is in Hong Kong?

Please do come visit HK, it's a great place if not for WC then for the food and night life. Seems like everyone who comes to HK always want the Dim Sum. HAAHA.

[mun hung]

My SiFu is Lee Che Kong or Allan Lee. I think he's with my SiBak Duncan Leung.

[wkmark]

My SiFu is Lee Che Kong or Allan Lee. I think he's with my SiBak Duncan Leung.

I am not familar with Allan Lee, although i do recognize the face from youtube videos. However I do know of Si-Sok Duncan Leung, not personally but he is one of the "fighter" Sifus.

FYI since i asked you about your sifu, it's only polite to to advise you back of mine. My sifu was Wong Shun Leung, and after he passed away, I am currently training with my Sihing Cliff Au Yeung who had spent a great deal of time with Sifu as well as my other Sihing in my video (Jerry Yeung who is also another student of Wong Shun Leung) .

[bennyvt]

wkmak, so you train with cliff. I trained there when i went to hk. Jerry was really nice and the other guys were cool. Took a while to get the aussie humour but got into it when they did. Well i may have met you but please say hello to cliff for me. Tell him benny from australia says hello.

[LoneTiger108]

FYI since i asked you about your sifu, it's only polite to to advise you back of mine. My sifu was Wong Shun Leung, and after he passed away, I am currently training with my Sihing Cliff Au Yeung who had spent a great deal of time with Sifu as well as my other Sihing in my video (Jerry Yeung who is also another student of Wong Shun Leung) .

I follow Sifu Cliff on Facebook I knew I recognised him in your clip you posted here!

IMHO - Wing Chun people are too arrogant to learn anything new - especially from other WC groups. They would rather go incorporate grappling, boxing, stick fighting and ballet into what they know instead. Why is that? If everyone on this board pooled all their practical knowledge of Wing Chun together - it could almost replicate how this style was started in the first place. Whatever worked best was used.

I agree to a point. Most guys HERE show signs of arrogance, but again I bet if you met them they would be humble and more understandable. FWIW in the UK we seem to be entering a 'quiet time' in Wing Chun as the market is just too saturated with cage fighters and MMA. Nothing wrong with that IMO as trends tend to pass quickly but I'm the first to admit that it's hard to unite across families.

We have found it hard enough to get our own family together, let alone others, but we do try. It takes selfless individuals to make this happen and I'm lucky enough to be around people like that so it tends to rub off on me too.

Actually Facebook has helped us acheive what we have to date so social networking has it's bonuses

[Niersun]

From my personal experience, i have tried to train with Non TWC schools just to continue doing chi sao, but once you tell them your from GM William Cheungs school, they start saying the same stupid things.

Even though i continued for the lesson, it was as if they were trying their hardest to inflict some damage on me.

Their chi sao looked very sloppy too. I think it was Jim Fungs lineage.

Anyway, one trial was all it took for me to decide not to return.

I do however enjoy reading and listening to fighting strategy and theory from the late Wong Shun Leung.

No point in a TWC person going to train with Leung Tings bunch.

[wkmark]

wkmak, so you train with cliff. I trained there when i went to hk. Jerry was really nice and the other guys were cool. Took a while to get the aussie humour but got into it when they did. Well i may have met you but please say hello to cliff for me. Tell him benny from australia says hello.

Benny, It's great to meet another fellow WSL Lineage VT practitioner. I will be sure to let Sihing Cliff knows that you said hello. Please do come by again when you have a chance. Our door is always open for people who are willing to come and share. If you are on facebook, i will see if I can add you.