A thread for the more liberal wing chunners

[anerlich]

When I started grappling I used to look for applications of WC moves in the technique. For example, I personally think the gum/garn section in TWC SLT is more easily modified to be a guillotine than any part of bil jee.

However, practicing WC forms will never make you a better grappler.

I also feel I progressed more rapidly as a grappler when I stopped trying to see everything through WC-coloured glasses and just followed my grappling instructors' directions. I needed to empty my cup.

Opinions vary, but that's my take on it.

Wing Chun is something I do. I feel it is important to be able to make fine distinctions between it and different arts rather than just having them all mix into some beige goo. I wouldn't say it's part of my IDENTITY, though, that makes no sense to me.

[Lee Chiang Po]

***NOTsaying that you can't use some of the moves I mentioned from long range.

I am saying that boxing attacks from longer ranges can get you to short range with a lot more easy than relying solely on wing chun - and it is at the shorter ranges where most of the moves I mentioned work at their best. Am also saying that boxing (and kickboxing) footwork, kicks, and especially boxing defenses can enhance the wing chun defensive game...

as in slips, ducks, bobbs and weaves, etc. Most wing chun defense is based on a bridge in order to parry, cut punch, deflect, and redirect - and not that much is based on pure avoidance. Boxing defenses on the other hand rely primarily upon avoidance - and this additional addition (no pun intended) to the wing chun small-amounts-of-avoidance-and-large-amount-of-bridging...defenses....would give the wing chun fighter more time to spend on offense.

From various ranges. And the best defense is always offense.

Actually, the best defense is not always offense. One should never attack a defended fortification unless he has some sort of advantage. I have to wonder, if Boxing and wrestling has all you really need, why would you want to play around with Wing Chun? Obviously, it would degrade your kick boxing and make it less effective. Look at it realistically. Wing Chun practiced by it's principal concepts would not be the same if you did it like you was kick boxing. Or I would not really think it would be. It would only drag you down if you tried to keep it true to concept. It simply does not make sense to me that you would actually try to marry the two. You could switch between systems, but I seriously doubt mixing them would help you much.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Actually, the best defense is not always offense. One should never attack a defended fortification unless he has some sort of advantage. I have to wonder, if Boxing and wrestling has all you really need, why would you want to play around with Wing Chun? Obviously, it would degrade your kick boxing and make it less effective. Look at it realistically. Wing Chun practiced by it's principal concepts would not be the same if you did it like you was kick boxing. Or I would not really think it would be. It would only drag you down if you tried to keep it true to concept. It simply does not make sense to me that you would actually try to marry the two. You could switch between systems, but I seriously doubt mixing them would help you much.

***YOU attack a fortified location (ie.- a fighter with a good defensive posture) carefully - but you attack. You don't wait to play a counter-attack game...unless of course the lack of attacking weapons makes you wary?!

Never said that boxing and wrestling has "all I need" - although someone proficient in boxing and (submission) wrestling is indeed formidable.

And no, wing chun wouldn't degrade kickboxing because you use whatever weapon is appropriate to the time and place (range).

And TWC central line concepts can easily be applied and adapted to fit into a kickboxing (or a boxing) framework.

And the closer you get - then the emphasis on working the main centerline kicks in.

[YungChun]

***YOU attack a fortified location (ie.- a fighter with a good defensive posture) carefully - but you attack.

If I'm not mistaken.. No fortification has ever worked...long term.. Because fortifications are inherently limited and fixed.. It's just a matter of time before the pounding takes it's toll..

VT has already lost its identity and I cite this forum as proof..

Once again the old man would be laughing his azz off..

[Niersun]

I know you're all going to read this thread but this is for the people that believe wing chun can be anything. I read a comment in another thread where someone said a move in bui jee is an incidental gillutine. Many believe that wck is principal based and made to mold over many different situations...but then practice the same basic static drills as every other wck school. If wck is so liberal and can be mma or street fighting...is it still wck?

Or is it mma? I don't mean the sport. Why practice all the stylyzed hand motions in the first place if it is supposed to be principle based? Why call it wck at all? Might as well call it kick-a$$. Will this new liberal way of thinking of wck cause us to lose our identity?

Static drills??? Not while i was training at GM Cheungs academy.

WC is not liberal. Its just so... basic and simple, people feel the urge to add clay to the statue. It is just too... simplistic for some people.

Who wants simplicity when there is much more appealing techniques from other MA's.

Even to this day, instead of learning a finger jab to the eye, people want to know the death touch, the secret of the one inch punch, etc, etc.

It is JKD. Why continue calling it, WC? Because WC is the foundation and its marketable.

[Ultimatewingchun]

the problem with purely bobbing and weaving is that it is pure defense. there is no offense. as a result, that is a wasted move/opportunity. WC seeks to always always attack and defend simultaneously.

however, if your WC has no way to move your body and only relies on the arms to deflect attacks, i can see why learning to bob and weave is necessary

***THINK CAREFULLY about this.

Good boxers often use bobbs and weaves as part of a one move the ending of which is a strike; the same thing with a duck. He throws a punch, you duck and return the fire on a different line from a different angle in one motion. Not wasted motion or energy at all; but rather, it becomes something that can easily be labelled (near) simultaneous attack & defense.

Does this strategy sound familiar?

And even in wing chun reality fighting, exactly simultaneous attack and defense is very rare. "Simultaneous" attack and defense is almost always hitting back on the half beat - and not on the exact first beat.

[k gledhill]

I know you're all going to read this thread but this is for the people that believe wing chun can be anything. I read a comment in another thread where someone said a move in bui jee is an incidental gillutine. Many believe that wck is principal based and made to mold over many different situations...but then practice the same basic static drills as every other wck school. If wck is so liberal and can be mma or street fighting...is it still wck?

Or is it mma? I don't mean the sport. Why practice all the stylyzed hand motions in the first place if it is supposed to be principle based? Why call it wck at all? Might as well call it kick-a$$. Will this new liberal way of thinking of wck cause us to lose our identity?

VT has varying levels of efficiency...find the most efficient and then train hard at it....the best way to judge isnt chi-sao. its sparring other VT. takes a few seconds.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Pacman
the problem with purely bobbing and weaving is that it is pure defense. there is no offense. as a result, that is a wasted move/opportunity. WC seeks to always always attack and defend simultaneously.

however, if your WC has no way to move your body and only relies on the arms to deflect attacks, i can see why learning to bob and weave is necessary

i am sorry but this is just wrong, the whole point of bobbing and weaving is to be able to counter almost immediatly, bobbing and weaving and hooking to the body or head govery well together , as does rhrowing the over hand as you move your head

oh and not getting hit and seeking a better attacking angle is not a wasted move

[goju]

randy williams has his "wing chun bob and weaving" and ive seen other wc styles do like a head slip as well

[t_niehoff]

I like Vankuen's response, it's a good way to view or approach most of the movements in the forms.
Styles are not really fighting methods.. they are training methods.

That doesn't make sense. You train to do something. What is that something?

WCK is an approach to fighting and a means of learning/training that approach.

It's the same with BJJ or boxing.

How you fight is dependant more on who your opponent is, what he's doing and what the environment is.

It is also dependent on your approach to fighting (the skills you have), and whether or not you can impose it on your opponent.

Fighting methods come down more to strategy and tactics, that is why 2 people trained in the same style can fight so differently.

You need physical skills (movement, techniques, actions, etc.) to implement strategy and tactics, and your ability to use your strategy and tactics depends on how good your physical skills are.

As for Wing Chun's training methods.. obviously I like them, but there is definately lots of room for improvement, innovation and outright theft of other methods.

Very true.

[t_niehoff]

***THINK CAREFULLY about this.

Good boxers often use bobbs and weaves as part of a one move the ending of which is a strike; the same thing with a duck. He throws a punch, you duck and return the fire on a different line from a different angle in one motion. Not wasted motion or energy at all; but rather, it becomes something that can easily be labelled (near) simultaneous attack & defense.

Does this strategy sound familiar?

And even in wing chun reality fighting, exactly simultaneous attack and defense is very rare. "Simultaneous" attack and defense is almost always hitting back on the half beat - and not on the exact first beat.

Please, don't try to tell us what GOOD boxers do when you've never trained with ANY good boxers or under any boxing trainers in your life.

[SavvySavage]

I beleive that wing chun people should spend more time on skill development and less time doing form, interpreting forms for techniques, and static close drilling.

If the move in bil gee is an incidental gillutine than practicing the form 100 times thinkng about the gillutine won't make one able to do it. Just because a form has the built in mechanics for endless technique variation doesn't mean that doing the form or that move will make you better at executing moves under pressure. The same goes with the overpractice of body structure drills. How can one be spontaneous in execution of techniques against live opponents if he just practices a form for years?

When sparring I almost have never seen bong sao pulled off as anything more than it's basic parry when someone was about to get clobbered or as an elbow strike(my interpretation). But isn't a bong sao an incidental arm lock? Can't bong be used to side step a double leg take down and strike the guy in the neck? Those are two liberal applicatjoke I just came up with all by myself. Mom is going to be so proud! I haven't tried them so I don't know if I could do them. Somewhere along the way wing chun(and other traditional chinese martial arts) became all about the ART of form interpretation and less about develoing real MARTIAL skills.

I've practced this drill for many of my wing chun years. A guy throws a round house sat me and I execute kwun sao(bong and tan) to deflect and then attack. In sparring In sparring I've seen people get attacked by a round house and not do anything resembling kwun sao. It looked more like he just put his hands down(sort of like gan sao) at the last second. A full powered kick would have clobbers his arm. While doing two person drill work the classc kwun sao against the round house works wondefully. It's almost orgasmic hoe good a newb can feel when pulling off that move in statc drilling(maybe I'm exhaggerating). But then he looks all frazzled during actual sparring and pulls off the putting the hands down knee-jerk reaction. "He" represents us all. So what's the point of drilling this stylized drill statically only to have it fall apart in 3D world? I thnk it's to hold onto the wing chun identity. "Look how different we are from the other guys! The nun did this against the monks and now i'm continuing that tradition.".

[t_niehoff]

I know you're all going to read this thread but this is for the people that believe wing chun can be anything. I read a comment in another thread where someone said a move in bui jee is an incidental gillutine. Many believe that wck is principal based and made to mold over many different situations...but then practice the same basic static drills as every other wck school. If wck is so liberal and can be mma or street fighting...is it still wck?

WTF does "principal based" mean? Tell me. Because I think the term itself is meaningless. It's one of those terms that sounds good, impresses the gullible, etc. but really means nothing when you examine it.

In my view, WCK - like all martial arts -- is skill-based. Skill-based. No matter what your idea, your concept, your strategy, your tactic, etc. you need to execute it, to PHYSICALLY DO some movement, action, technique, etc. It's not good enough to simply have some idea or principle in mind -- you need movement, technique, etc. to "express" it, right? Your ability to successfully physically do some task is a skill. Your ability to execute your idea or concept or principle is limited to the extent of your physical skill.

We get better at physical skills by practicing those physical skills. In other words, you start with a task, and a way of doing it (technique, movement, etc.) and practice it over and over.

WCK movement (the movement we learn and practice in the forms, drills, etc.) are the WCK concepts and principles IN ACTION. The movement and the principles/concepts are two sides of the same coin -- you can't have one without the other. So when you don't see WCK movement, you aren't seeing WCK principles.

Or is it mma? I don't mean the sport. Why practice all the stylyzed hand motions in the first place if it is supposed to be principle based? Why call it wck at all? Might as well call it kick-a$$. Will this new liberal way of thinking of wck cause us to lose our identity?

The WCK actions, movement, etc. aren't "stylized hand motions" but actions that perform specific tasks. To perform that task, you NEED that action. It's like throwing a ball. If you want to throw a ball, you need to move your arm/body in a certain specific way to perform that task.

[stonecrusher69]

Here's a more important question to be asking yourself: Why do you have such a need to have an identity with WC?

Because everyone wants to be Bruce Lee.

[omarthefish]

On attacking a fortress. . .

Yeah. It's kind of stupid.

But OTOH, so is being on the defensive.

You want to take the initiative. I'm not sure what good western strategy books are out there (I'm sure there's plenty) but the best one I've ever come across was NOT Sun Tzu's "Art of War" or Musashi's "Book of 5 Rings". The one that's given me the most food for thought, practical down to earth ideas, is "The 36 Strategies" which is sort of a companion book to "Art of War".

Sun Tzu says that of the 3 types of battles, attacking a fortification is the most costly and the dumbest. The key is to bring him out of his fortification. From the 36 that's called "diao hu li shan"/enticing a tiger to descend from the mountain. You need to bait the person to open up. Usually that means baiting them to attack in some predictable way.

My own Shifu actually teaches specifically not to keep your defense too closed up. Leave openings. Just be aware of them. The real openings are in your mind, ie. the places where you are not aware of the vulnerability. He says that if your defense is too tight (from an outside view anyways) then opponents get smart. They launch fakes and try to trick you into "descending from the mountain". When your stance seems open, people tend to attack in more predictable ways.