Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr won MMA fight

[Andreas Hoffman]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

[Ultimatewingchun]

Doesn't look like Weng Chun !!!


Ha! ha! ha! Just kidding...

Congratulations, Andreas !

[Knifefighter]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

OK, WC "experts"? How about this? Is this a better representation of WC used full contact than the clip I posted?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

Congrats... is this your student?

[Knifefighter]

Congrats... is this your student?

Do you consider this a better representation of WC techs/principles than you did regarding the clip of Aaron I posted? If so, why?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you consider this a better representation of WC techs/principles than you did regarding the clip of Aaron I posted? If so, why?

No, but to disparage the WC would be off topic. A lot of people feel like they need to modify their WC for the ring and I have no problem with it. I will always say, no one has to apologize for winning a fight.

[SAAMAG]

Why doesn't WC look like WC in an MMA FIGHT? Because it's an MMA FIGHT and everyone that goes into an MMA fight fights with MMA in mind. From the WC guy (who I'm assuming is the blond one) we see:

*A jab-cross-straight(ish), then a headlock?!. Then a takedown that was reversed.

*Stuck in a guillotine attempt and dealing with knees, he uses his forearms to block. He's released, and squares off again

*Attacks with a 4-5 series of looping punches -- the other guy moves in and is driven down by our WC guys forearm, could be seen as a lan sao.

*Tries to get his opponent in a guillotine (one of the most common MMA submissions); upon failure he rabbit punches the other guys head.

*Driven against the cage, he takes a moment of to compose himself--holding with what looks like a quasi underhook and possibly overhook with the other arm--he gets off the cage with an overhand left.

*Squaring off again, we get a loopy right followed by left loopy hook.

*Right MMA SHIN ROUND KICK to the thigh of the opponent followed by left straight using it to parry a immediate counter by the other guy

*Another MMA SHIN ROUND KICK with the same leg (I say MMA because it's not great for a thai kick but good for an MMA version of it)

*Sprawl to counter a double leg attempt.

*Standing, he throws a swinging uppercut punch--whereby the opponent drops onto his back as it misses.

*Drops with a punch to the downed opponent, follows with a standing position over the other guy doing a quasi ground and pound. As guy rolls around to avoid the punches, our WC guys continues the onslaught with varying angles, uppercuts with the right hand...

*Opponent stands, is right leg MMA round kicked

*Stands over the opponent using more ground and pound, keeps going with right hand hammering until fight is called in his favor.

SOOOO you tell us Dale...did any of that sound like Wing Chun or Weng Chun? Nope. It was MMA. None of it was even based on WC principles. At a longshot--we could say the forearm blocks were lan sao...but that's about it.

Just because you label MMA with WC, doesn't mean it's WC. Does it mean this Aaron did badly?! Hell no! He did a very good job in the fight and pretty much dominated the other guy. But to call THAT performance as whole or even partially wing chun...probably not. He can be a WC stylist that fights MMA; but that wasn't an example of WC being used IN MMA.

Now at the same time...it's my belief that while WC is effective for its desired range of combat, that range of combat only occurs for literally seconds at a time, whereby you will either be out of that range (kicking) or in an entirely different range altogether (like the ground). WC should be a tool used for it's purpose, not a tool to use in all tasks. That would be like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. That's why you don't really see it in MMA. Because it would be subtle in its application and only done for the moment that it is ideal for.

[Knifefighter]

SOOOO you tell us Dale...did any of that sound like Wing Chun or Weng Chun? Nope. It was MMA. None of it was even based on WC principles. At a longshot--we could say the forearm blocks were lan sao...but that's about it.

Just because you label MMA with WC, doesn't mean it's WC. Does it mean this Aaron did badly?! Hell no! He did a very good job in the fight and pretty much dominated the other guy. But to call THAT performance as whole or even partially wing chun...probably not. He can be a WC stylest, that fights MMA. But that wasn't an example of WC being used IN MMA. .

So with that reasoning, shouldn't one just abandon WC if one wants to fight MMA?

It also begs the question, why can you still see BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, and boxing techniques and principles in play in MMA?

.

Now at the same time...it's my belief that while WC is effective for its desired range of combat, that range of combat only occurs for literally seconds at a time, whereby you will either be out of that range (kicking) or in an entirely different range altogether (like the ground). WC should be a tool used for it's purpose, not a tool to use in all tasks. That would be like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail.

I agree also. Again, by that line of reasoning, wouldn't it also make sense to also limit one's training time in WC to that same small percentage and spend the majority of time on other ranges and styles?

[SAAMAG]

So with that reasoning, shouldn't one just abandon WC if one wants to fight MMA?

It also begs the question, why can you still see BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, and boxing techniques and principles in play in MMA?

.
I agree also. Again, by that line of reasoning, wouldn't it also make sense to also limit one's training time in WC to that same small percentage and spend the majority of time on other ranges and styles?

If the goal is to fight MMA...then yes. I'd say better to train like MMA fighters do, using what works best in MMA. Of course it's ok to experiment. Try out what you do to see if it works...because there might be other things out there that work equally well (which satifies a personal style factor) or better (which satisfies the effectiveness factor). The thing with this video clip...is it didn't seem like he used any wing chun...so how does he know if it works? The question still remains unless there are other fights where he's using wing chun more prominently.

On the second point, I see where you're going and I agree. I felt that wing chun in it's classical form was indeed too limited in scope. Hence the reason why it was part of my toolbox and not the entire toolbox. I have muay thai, wing chun, and grappling (BJJ, Judo, and such) in my arsenal as primaries. Little things here and there that I've retained from other styles as well. No disagreement there at all my friend.

But seriously...do we have to compare MMA and wing chun all day long in a wing chun forum??

[Andreas Hoffman]

Thank you Ultimatewingchun for your gratulation. Since 15 years I work with my students in MMA, Sanda and Freefights. We try to keep our training methods of weng chun to enter the ring. Here is another fight in Sanda from Sebastian, here you can see typical weng chun ideas. He always try to circle and to enter from the site, from there he add striking, throwing etc.
If you are interested I can link more MMA and Sanda fights for you here.
I think we weng chun/wing chun people should work together to bring back the credibility of our styles into these sports.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Uups i forgot the link from the Sanda fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWFC...eature=related

[SAAMAG]

Thanks Andreas.

So a quick run down of the match (based on what I see)....

1. Sebastian throws a few round kicks from the outside
2. Gets a couple of nice leg lift takedowns (well timed)
3. A kick and punch from the outside
4. Low round kick to shoot attempt
5. Body kick and successful takedown defense
6. Landed a quick punch from the outside and another successful takedown defense
7. Low round kick to enter followed by round short punches, leg trip / sweep
8. A nice stiff stop hit (lead straight)
9. Following round kick as the opponent retreats and punch flurry
10. Declared the winner!

What I like is that he didn't go chain punching like most of the European WT guys do. He timed his shots, and used low kicks to setup his punches...and then from punches to takedowns or sweeps. So everything had its place.

Did it "look" like wing chun or weng chun? That will vary upon the viewer. Overall he did try to circle and attack from the outer gates, maintained composure, and did very, very well. So another win for a WC guy! My favorite pieces were the left lift counters and the nice stiff straight towards the end.

[Knifefighter]

If the goal is to fight MMA...then yes. I'd say better to train like MMA fighters do, using what works best in MMA. Of course it's ok to experiment. Try out what you do to see if it works...because there might be other things out there that work equally well (which satifies a personal style factor) or better (which satisfies the effectiveness factor). The thing with this video clip...is it didn't seem like he used any wing chun...so how does he know if it works? The question still remains unless there are other fights where he's using wing chun more prominently.

And if a person can't make his WC work in an MMA environment, wouldn't it make sense to also figure he probably couldn't do it in a street environment either?

[SAAMAG]

I see your logic and where you're going with it.

The fact of the matter is that MMA is a sport. Because something is effective in a ring, it doesn't mean it would work or be the best choice of technique in real life. The same goes vice versa.

For example: Anderson Silva dominates anyone in the ring, right? Yet he knew enough to not to fight back when he was mugged for his wallet. Why? MMA is a sport. Standing around circling and feinting and doing the one-two's and takedowns aren't SELF DEFENSE techniques per say. A jab, cross, hook, round kick, double leg, to GnP doesn't always fit the bill. It could be that controlling the person would have been better suited through grappling or trapping even something like kicking the knee out.

All that said...the fact is if you can't make your wing chun work in a ring, or in sparring, or in real life there IS problem. However the problem can be caused by a number of things:

1. It could be that your physical expertise needs more work
2. It could be that the style is flawed fundamentally
3. It could be that your understanding of the system is incorrect (i.e. your physical skills are good, you just don't understand the system well enough to make it work strategically)
4. It could be the gear causes a problem in terms of being able to apply common moves in the system (i.e. some say much of the hand work is hindered by the gloves) or the protectice gear masks the effectiveness of the technique
5. It could be the rules are built in such a way that favor certain systems.
6. The list can go on ad nauseum.

Some of these things are valid, some are more excuses. The fact remains though it's not cut and dry. So your deductive reasoning while proper on the surface, if not thought through in detail, can run into snags and incorrect conclusions.

You're basically saying that:

1. Wing chun doesn't work in MMA
2. Real fighting is more difficult than MMA
3. Therefore wing chun doesn't work in real fighting

That isn't necessarily the case because of aaaaaalllll the variables involved in real fighting, from relative skill levels, to the presence of weapons, to the environment, to weight class, and etc. Though generally and all else being equal...if you can't stop someone from hitting you in training, the likelyhood of stopping someone in real life is slim.

[anerlich]

Sifu Hoffman,

Congratulations to Allan and yourself.