Robert Chu's Master Class DVD

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look, there's no doubt that certain wing chun moves will fall by the wayside as time marches on, it happens with every martial art to one degree or another.

[YungChun]

Boxing and Muay Thai type striking are many times more efficient and economical.

And that's why you see the WC guys who are fighting full contact actually moving away from traditional WC techniques and more towards boxing and Muay Thai.

That's your story buster..

But time will tell.. Either we will see more VT or less VT... VT is way more efficient
when done correctly and IMO this will be reflected in it's performance in the future.

[Knifefighter]

but I believe that as time goes on we'll see wing chun guys also using pak, lop, bong, garn, bil, etc. And punching patterns that closely resemble the vertical fist, elbows-held-down-and-in-close-to-the-sides-of-the-body that characterizes wing chun.

As well as the more elevated elbows with a 3/4 horizontal fist type of punching attack occasionally used by Vitor Belfort in the past. Clearly a wing chun-influenced piece of fighting. There are moments in mma (or anywhere else) wherein this could be effective also.

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

[Knifefighter]

That's your story buster..

But time will tell.. Either we will see more VT or less VT... VT is way more efficient
when done correctly and IMO this will be reflected in it's performance in the future.

What's funny is that any of you so-called WC "experts" could easily prove the naysayers wrong. Simply train a group of guys and start entering them into MMA competitions.

Then, if you are right, you will have all the evidence you need.

Supposedly, you guys are the experts in WC, while T and I know nothing and Alan is not doing "real" WC.

So, prove us wrong.

Who's up for it?

[YungChun]

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

And yet....

You've said that you think VT is useful for keeping the grapplers away... If so then why would fighting grapplers make you adopt something that doesn't help you keep them away?

In reality VT and other SCMA actually address energy issuing and control as an aspect of standing impact fighting, a much more dynamic and interesting variation on fighting IMO..

The mainstream is getting tired of watching men roll around on the floor for minute after minute after minute..

Standing control and impacting with sudden devastating blows would make for much more exciting matches..

[sanjuro_ronin]

This has nothing to do with Robert's DVD guys.
At least the 2 vol I have seen don't mention anything about MMA.
I Have Alan's MMA and NHB dvd;s and they are great, Alan takes the principles of CSL WCK and adapts them to MMA.
Alan's guys do tend to use "typical" MMA techniques though, which makes sense since it is a MMA match.
Well WC change radically as it is exposed ore to MMA?
Yes, it probably will, just as it would change if it was being used in the boxing ring or in the MT ring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

***AND I THINK you're only half right. Indeed, you will see, imo, "wing chun" guys in mma who use plenty of boxing/Muay Thai/clinch oriented stuff...and sure, those same guys will have to be schooled in wrestling/grappling.

But this will be in addition to, and not necessarily instead of, the things I mentioned in post#27.

From certain ranges they will look like boxers/kickboxers...at other ranges they will be looking like wing chun - as well as boxers throwing hooks and uppercuts from those ranges - and possibly a Thai clinch from there as well.

And things like pak, bil, and garn can be used from outside ranges also - not just from very close.

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

[YungChun]

What's funny is that any of you so-called WC "experts" could easily prove the naysayers wrong. Simply train a group of guys and start entering them into MMA competitions.

Then, if you are right, you will have all the evidence you need.

Supposedly, you guys are the experts in WC, while T and I know nothing and Alan is not doing "real" WC.

So, prove us wrong.

Who's up for it?

I'd love the chance.. I have no school.. And of course there is the problem of finding anyone who wants to do this... 99.999% of those few who want to fight automatically assume they have to do what you do (MT, BJJ, WB)...because of folks who think your way... The most recent evidence being the thread where the VT guy was not testing in his fighting ability, but rather testing in training MT...

With so few who do VT who want to fight and people building walls to stop them, well hey you do the math..

[Knifefighter]

And yet....

You've said that you think VT is useful for keeping the grapplers away... If so then why would fighting grapplers make you adopt something that doesn't help you keep them away?

Because in MMA, you have to fight. You can't spend the whole match keeping someone away and running away from him. You have to be able to do damage.

Standing control and impacting with sudden devastating blows would make for much more exciting matches..

The problem with that is that's exactly when you are opened up to being taken down and having to "roll around on the floor for minute after minute after minute."

[sanjuro_ronin]

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

[YungChun]

This has nothing to do with Robert's DVD guys.
At least the 2 vol I have seen don't mention anything about MMA.
I Have Alan's MMA and NHB dvd;s and they are great, Alan takes the principles of CSL WCK and adapts them to MMA.
Alan's guys do tend to use "typical" MMA techniques though, which makes sense since it is a MMA match.
Well WC change radically as it is exposed ore to MMA?
Yes, it probably will, just as it would change if it was being used in the boxing ring or in the MT ring.

If it changes too much it is no longer VT..

If change means FOCUSING on a reduced technique set and on key attributes for MMA then great..

I think most who get what VT is all about know very well that well trained VT married with BJJ and a little salt and pepper (and of course the right fighter) can make for a fantastic combination of skills.

[Knifefighter]

***AND I THINK you're only half right. Indeed, you will see, imo, "wing chun" guys in mma who use plenty of boxing/Muay Thai/clinch oriented stuff...and sure, those same guys will have to be schooled in wrestling/grappling.

But this will be in addition to, and not necessarily instead of, the things I mentioned in post#27.

From certain ranges they will look like boxers/kickboxers...at other ranges they will be looking like wing chun - as well as boxers throwing hooks and uppercuts from those ranges - and possibly a Thai clinch from there as well.

And things like pak, bil, and garn can be used from outside ranges also - not just from very close.

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

You are wrong. But go ahead and feel free to prove differently with a group of guys you train to fight MMA.

Supposedly you are one of the self-proclaimed WC "experts", so go ahead, get started on this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only way to keep a MMA fight standing is when BOTH fighters don't wanna take it down, or the better fighter wants to keep it standing or the striker has REALLY GOOD KO power and defense and makes the grappler pay every time he clinches.

[YungChun]

Because in MMA, you have to fight. You can't spend the whole match keeping someone away and running away from him. You have to be able to do damage.

Well if it's good at "keeping them off you" as in Rashun and you.. You have to add in the actual impact of the strikes.. See how that works?

VT doesn't run away. The main idea of VT is to project energy into the opponent, intended to do damage and take his base away in order to stall his attempt to go offensive..

I think we are seeing more, not less VT in MMA and other venues.. Give it time and we will see what happens.. No need to guess.

[Knifefighter]

I'd love the chance.. I have no school.. And of course there is the problem of finding anyone who wants to do this... 99.999% of those few who want to fight automatically assume they have to do what you do (MT, BJJ, WB)...because of folks who think your way... The most recent evidence being the thread where the VT guy was not testing in his fighting ability, but rather testing in training MT...

With so few who do VT who want to fight and people building walls to stop them, well hey you do the math..

Really? Do know where the Dog Bros started? In someone's backyard. Do you know how many people were interested in this in the beginning? About 6 or 7. Do you know how BJJ started in the states? In a garage with about 9 people who were actually interested, while everyone else thought it was stupid.

If something is actually good and workable, number of people or location doesn't matter. Result easily speak for themselves.