A Rick Spain question

[anerlich]

I'm starting to regret not taking the opportunity to have attended Rick's seminar back in 98'...

Not for me to say. He would have only started grappling around that time, maybe even after, though he could have shown you some pretty slick kicking back then. I'm sure you guys would have gotten along very well ... though I also think Sigung Cheung would have been livid if he'd found out you were talking to him at the time

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh, no doubt about it. LOL
.................................

Yeah, Rick is very impressive.

Does he have any plans for any vids? You know, sort of a "This is where I am now in my martial arts" kind of thing?

I mean, he's got to be an encyclopedia by now. Would love to actually see how he pieces it altogether.

[anerlich]

Not really, while he has no aversion to making money he's never been much of a one for the seminar/DVD/youtube self promotion route. He has a number of other business interests besides his school and I think it comes down to the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day and concentrating on what activities pay the best.

He has done a few seminar DVD's, grading system DVD's etc, though they're probably not of professional quality (not that that seems to stop many people).

[Niersun]

***VERY INTERESTING, Andrew...

So this was clearly different than the Advanced SLT form (which has some footwork) I take it? Yeah?

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

[Ultimatewingchun]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

****Very confusing post, Niersun...

What exactly are you saying about William Cheung, and what he refers to as TWC (Traditional Wing Chun)?

[Niersun]

****Very confusing post, Niersun...

What exactly are you saying about William Cheung, and what he refers to as TWC (Traditional Wing Chun)?

Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???

[duende]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???

Hey Niersun,

For your information, Hung Fa Yi and Hung Suen are not related. We only used the name Hung Suen publicly early on because it was a generic term and didn't attract attention. Not for marketing, but for lack of marketing rather... Internally, we have always been Hung Fa Yi.

Around the late nineties, we started receiving more public attention. And it therefore became apparent that we couldn't really use Hung Suen name anymore. As our history was now public, it was time to share our true name.


As for WC being developed by a nun.... Many WC'rs dispute the myth. Although, we may have been among the first, we are most definitely not alone. Again.. if you think that's marketing, then seriously...haha.. don't ever try your hand at business.

Personally, I bust up laughing whenever I hear foolishness about WC being female in nature, or "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl"... come on.. get real. That's all fantasy fu nonsense.



Finally, in regards to your so called marketing accusations..

We don't sell DVD's. Nor do we plan to. (I don't think Rick Spain's group does either for that matter)

We only have a book out, because they (Human Kinetics) approached us.

Yes we do have seminars, but as they tend to run practically non-stop for two days... one would be hard pressed to complain about getting their money's worth.


So frankly your comments about either Hung Fa Yi or Hung Suen and marketing, are not only unfounded... but truly delusional.




Ok.. said my peace.

[bennyvt]

does anyone believe the nun story. I read when rick changed it and it had to do more with the fact that at the time it was all about the red boats. And he wasn't using the twc name anymore.

[Niersun]

Apologies to you for what may seem delusional comments.

However, as you can see, i dont know squat about Hung fa yi since it is relatively new to the public, which has actually led me to these forums after trying to research more about it.

Ultimately, i want to know the true history of the art and i understand that there a differences as most MA throughout the centuries trained in different arts also.

But why would Leung Yee Tai or Wong wah bo tell a lie to Leung Jan about the beginnings which would then be passed onto to his son Leung Bik and then Chan Wah shun and ultimately Yip Man?

Red Flower society isnt nothing new. Im half Chinese and read books about them. Rebelions, but nothing about them having there own style of fighting, particularly Wing chun.

When i spoke of marketing, i meant through "something new".

A society has more than one member, so please inform me who else can confirm Hung Fa Yi's stories??? Other than Gee sifu and his sifu???

Poke in the eye and kick to the nuts, attacking the vital parts of the body as a primary objective sounds feminish to me.

So when, Yip man was on the television, bruce lee, william cheung, wong shun leung was telling the world how Wing Chun was developed by a woman, you guys decided to keep quiet and not reveal the truth??? Red Flower society was secretive centuries ago in China, not in the 60's or 70's in HK. Why keep quiet.

Please again dont take this as an attack, ultimately i would like to obtain the truth for my own personal reasons. You do not have to prove yourself to me (from what i have seen, its good, its similar to TWC), should you wish, just PM me.

[duende]

Apologies to you for what may seem delusional comments.

No worries. I just get my guard up sometimes

However, as you can see, i dont know squat about Hung fa yi since it is relatively new to the public, which has actually led me to these forums after trying to research more about it.

Where do you live? I'm in the Bay Area. If you're ever in the area, stop on by. We have welcomed many visitors over the years.

Ultimately, i want to know the true history of the art and i understand that there a differences as most MA throughout the centuries trained in different arts also.

WC is a very complex history. With various branches, and limbs. However ultimately, I believe we all share the same roots, or crossed roots with a common history that is most likely along similar lines as other Southern fist systems.

But why would Leung Yee Tai or Wong wah bo tell a lie to Leung Jan about the beginnings which would then be passed onto to his son Leung Bik and then Chan Wah shun and ultimately Yip Man?

How do we know exactly what WWB and LYT told LJ? Who knows the context etc... Ultimately, it's not for us to say. If you consider the uprisings, rebellions, and similar history of other southern fist systems... it makes more sense imo, that the classic tale was somewhat of a metaphor.

Red Flower society isnt nothing new. Im half Chinese and read books about them. Rebelions, but nothing about them having there own style of fighting, particularly Wing chun.

When i spoke of marketing, i meant through "something new".

Actually you may want to read more. There's much documented history of the secret societies and their intertwined relationships with southern KF systems.

A society has more than one member, so please inform me who else can confirm Hung Fa Yi's stories??? Other than Gee sifu and his sifu???

Sure, but actual lineage holders are few. Look at the lineage of YM... Besides modern times, very few actual figures are accounted for in their history as well.

It's perfectly fine to seek answers to these questions. Imo however, the expression of the art, logic flow, and core identity legitimizes Hung Fa Yi beyond doubt.

FWIW, we have been in contact with other Hung Fa Yi disciples from my Sifu's generation.

Poke in the eye and kick to the nuts, attacking the vital parts of the body as a primary objective sounds feminish to me.

These are common techniques to many MA's not just WC.

So when, Yip man was on the television, bruce lee, william cheung, wong shun leung was telling the world how Wing Chun was developed by a woman, you guys decided to keep quiet and not reveal the truth??? Red Flower society was secretive centuries ago in China, not in the 60's or 70's in HK. Why keep quiet.

Iron Curtain for one. One can not compare HK to Mainland China without taking this into consideration. TCMA's were widely persecuted during the earlier days of communist rule. There are many other reasons too, but in general.. Ask yourself this. Without Bruce Lee... how widespread and well known, do you think YM Wing Chun would be?

Please again dont take this as an attack, ultimately i would like to obtain the truth for my own personal reasons. You do not have to prove yourself to me (from what i have seen, its good, its similar to TWC), should you wish, just PM me.

I don't see it as an attack, but thanks for making your perspective clear.

Best,

[anerlich]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

LOL, the mother of all improbable WC marketing stories and greatest single cause of internecine WC squabbling over the last 40 odd years is William Cheung's own history. It's pretty funny that you get all uppity about anyone else having a go.

All of this has been done to flippin' death, resurrected, and done to flippin' death again several times over on this forum over the last few years. I suggest you do some historical research of your own in the forum before diving in too much deeper and repeating the mistakes of the past.

Originally Posted by Niersun
Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???

He does the forms differently to how Willam Cheung teaches them, yes. He claims that he saw William Cheung doing the forms this way once, and I've already explained the rationale for using front stance rather than side neutral above. I'm not sure if you regard this as mortal sin or creative virtue. And I don't care.

There was plenty of argument about the history of WC before Rick added anything to it, and no doubt there will continue to be. Some people might have nothing to do otherwise!

Actually, what happened is that Rick Spain and his then senior student Alf del Brocco were in contact with Benny Meng, who was then pushing the HFY (formerly called Hung Suen) barrow pretty fast. Alf and Benny collaborated on at least one article. The theory was entertained that perhaps William Cheung spent some time on the Chinese mainland while out of favour with the HK authorities, and that was the cause of the apparent similarities between TWC and HFY. This "theory" is pretty much dead, especially since both Garrett Gee and William Cheung denied any link. While discredited, IMO it is still far more credible than the Leung Bik TWC story.

Benny himself appears to have moved on from HFY being the "truest of the true" to Black Flag/Eng Chun being the "secret innermost circle of the truest of the true".

I haven't looked at Rick's website for a while but i may well have that story on it, still. Cringeworthy perhaps, but no more (and perhaps less) so than some of the other offerings in the websites of WC peers, including that of his own teacher.

You're training in a glass kwoon. Be careful should you decide to throw stones.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Incredible post - and as usual...very entertaining as well.

[chusauli]

Andrew! Love that! LOL! Great post!