A Rick Spain question

[Ultimatewingchun]

What particularly interests me at this point in time, Andrew...is the fact that someone who had 37 pro kickboxing and over 100 amateur fights (including demos with Urquidez and Wallace)....along with kyokushin and BJJ...

he's got to be mixing boxing and kickboxing with his wing chun, yeah?

In terms of his standup (and the kyokushin).

Let me ask it this way. Rick in a serious fight/match at this point in time (where basically anything goes)...and NOT while teaching a wing chun class, a kyokushin class - you see where I'm going?...

Rick in a serious nhb fight/match at this point in time - we'd probably see some mix of all the arts I mentioned - wouldn't we?

I know you can't speak for Rick; but as you said, you've been around him for 21 years and are his #2 guy by now - so in your opinion...

what would his stand up look like?

[anerlich]

Good question - he can box quite well, though he's never had a match fight under those rules AFAIK. Kickboxing, he's definitely done most if not all of it.

In a match, you'd probably see kickboxing and Kyokushin kicks, boxing style footwork and body movement, Wc hands interspersed with uppercuts and short hooks on the inside (which seem to work well against "pure" WC sparmates). He'd definitely try and take it to the ground against anyone short of a really good sub wrestler or BJJ black belt.

It's a bit of a silly exercise in some ways, trying to imagine what someone might do in a particular situation, but I think I'm probably reasonably close to the mark.

One other arrow in the quiver would definitely be conditioning. He does strength work, cardio and crossfit style workouts like a beast. He's pushing 50 and I doubt there's many guys his age anywhere as strong and fit and flexible as he is.

I repeat again that while you might get a mix of stuff in a match or fight, the various disciplines are trained separately without a lot of crossover, although those who aren't as keen on grappling as some might get the occasional bit of groundfighting in WC class. But TWC and BJJ are taught separately. MMA is a mix of striking and grappling, but it too is taught as a separate discipline as it is different to both pure grappling and pure striking.

The same thing happens at most MMA schools I've been to, certainly the one I attend regularly. It offers classes in BJJ, MT, MMA, and Arnis.

Mixing the arts up in a single class does, I believe, confuse students and result in mediocrity in the disciplines.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Excellent answer, Andrew...thank you.

Pretty much confirms what I thought, including the way to go about training various arts you might want to mix together.

Particularly encouraged by the way you described what his standup might look like these days - as it parallels what I've been thinking and trying to do in recent years with wing chun, boxing, and kickboxing...

although I'm sure Rick's fighting skills definitely go beyond mine!

I guess the next logical question would be something like this:

Do you know of any plans Rick might have concerning training someone for any nhb mma events?

Given what's on his resume, I think he could train some very formidable mma fighters if he really wanted to.

What do you think?

[HumbleWCGuy]

@ Victor. Aww man, the secret is out . . . . .
Yep, SLT can vary.

In my lineage we approach the forms by doing them completely stationary and then, less formally, we are encouraged to "free-style" by adding pivots at first, then footwork. We are expected to find different expressions of the forms by "playing around."

[HumbleWCGuy]

William Cheung always taught fighting out of the neutral side (body) stance - as this provides the fastest possibe lateral side steps against a frontal attack (be they half side steps or the full (T-stance) side step.

I have never met William although I have seen some parts of his tapes and youtube clips. I have been curious for some time about this little hopping movement that I see him do. It seems to happen when he starts from a natural stance. Any thoughts? I know that some crane systems use hopping, but I can't recall seeing any WC practitioners doing it. Although, I don't think that WC principles preclude it.

[bennyvt]

yeh i was taught it was all the same, one leg, front stance. Never did it pivoting though. Have to try it. I got a cool once fro the leung sheun lineage on the dummy. He had a interesting idea of playing with the dummy. Only using one arm. It feels weird but have another idea to consider. And as an aussie from a lineage that has had bad blood with twc. (all in the past) rick spain was always thought of as a good fighter

[kung fu fighter]

In a match, you'd probably see kickboxing and Kyokushin kicks, boxing style footwork and body movement, Wc hands interspersed with uppercuts and short hooks on the inside (which seem to work well against "pure" WC sparmates). He'd definitely try and take it to the ground against anyone short of a really good sub wrestler or BJJ black belt.

So basically Rick's fighting has an MMA structure with wing chun elements!

William Cheung also Had another student in the 80's by the name Anthony Arnett who made a name for himself in full contact fighting as well. What do you know about what his fighting looks like today?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Can't speak for today, but I have a vid made by Anthony back in the day with some of his guys - and with William Cheung supervising it. It was very good as far as it went at the time - using boxing gloves and dealing strictly with punches and kicks...

as in those days Anthony and his students were entering tournaments strictly under kickboxing rules (no clinching, no takedowns, no ground fighting).

[anerlich]

Competition isn't a huge focus for the academy, but our students had a few wins and a few losses in intermediate level MMA competitions. We've also had students succeeed in kickboxing, amateur boxing, and even continuous sparring and taekwondo.

Our Tasmanian branch regularly medal in BJJ comps down there. One of our other guys won his purple belt division of the Machado nationals also, and we had a girl who regularly placed in the top three in blue belt divisions.

We probably do about as well in comps as Alan Orr's students IMO with a little less fanfare.

If we had a real ambitious and serious MMA contender, Rick has network of friends who are MMA and sub wrestling coaches and long time BJJ black belts, and it would be foolish not to involve those guys.

A couple of our guys have trained at BJ Penn's academy for several months, FWIW.

[Gowgee]

anerlich, sorry to bring the conversation down to a slow drawl with my question as a 3rd party with respect for Sifu Spain, but what is exchange stepping?

[kung fu fighter]

Can't speak for today, but I have a vid made by Anthony back in the day with some of his guys - and with William Cheung supervising it. It was very good as far as it went at the time - using boxing gloves and dealing strictly with punches and kicks...

as in those days Anthony and his students were entering tournaments strictly under kickboxing rules (no clinching, no takedowns, no ground fighting).

Perhaps, you can put it up on on youtube

[anerlich]

anerlich, sorry to bring the conversation down to a slow drawl with my question as a 3rd party with respect for Sifu Spain, but what is exchange stepping?

Nothing at all wrong with the question.

An exchange step is basically a way to switch from a front stance with one foot forward to a front stance with the other foot forward.

From a left front stance (50/50 weight in TWC) step your left foot slightly behind the right, then step forward with your right to end up in front stance on the opposite side.

We also use a T step which is a combination of a side step and an exchange step.

Realistically, it's only used in isolation in the forms to swtich sides and do each sequence first on one side and then the other.

[anerlich]

So basically Rick's fighting has an MMA structure with wing chun elements!

Yeah, I guess that's about right.

IMO, the use of "structure" here has nothing to do with the "structure" we bicker about incessantly on this forum with respect to WC. MMA "structure" in that sense is much more variable and depends on exactly what you are doing, e.g. "rooting" to obtain punching power is not the best idea against an opponent skilled at leg shoots.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, I guess that's about right.

IMO, the use of "structure" here has nothing to do with the "structure" we bicker about incessantly on this forum with respect to WC. MMA "structure" in that sense is much more variable and depends on exactly what you are doing, e.g. "rooting" to obtain punching power is not the best idea against an opponent skilled at leg shoots.

***ANOTHER good and thoughtful post, Andrew...

Rick Spain's present day approach to fighting is basically an MMA structure with wing chun elements. Sounds like a good plan. Standup, Clinch, Ground. And you do what's necessary depending upon the zone you're in - with wing chun being used at close standup range - along with other moves like boxing hooks and uppercuts when in that range and striking is what's on the plate. That's the picture I'm getting.

I'm starting to regret not taking the opportunity to have attended Rick's seminar back in 98'...

.......................

On another note: BJ Penn, huh?! Interesting. BJ's got lots of skills in all areas of fighting. I have his book: "Mixed Martial Arts: the book of knowledge".

It's a big hardcover that goes about 300 pages - and with quite a number of color photos as he demos all aspects of his game.

Btw, does Rick still work on things like the Wooden Dummy these days?

The Butterfly swords? The Dragon Pole?

[anerlich]

Btw, does Rick still work on things like the Wooden Dummy these days?

The Butterfly swords? The Dragon Pole?

He works out maybe 6 days a week, and at least one of those will be a traditional workout - forms, the weapons, dummy, chi sao, etc.