An "Inside" scoop on Praying Mantis

[Taijimantis]

I spoke recently with a respected Seven Star Praying Mantis Sifu.
After a brief conversation on the phone with him today, he related some information he obtained on a recent trip to China and into Shantung Province, where he met with several Tanglang Grand masters. The result of these meetings both verified some of my theories on Praying Mantis History, and led to a schocking discovery!

If any of you other NPM practitioners have any insight, please speak up.

The Sifu (whose name I am not printing yet out of respect for him, should I have misunderstood and misquoted him) is a reliable source, and the information he gave me comes straight from the revered horse's mouth so to speak.

NPM did not split into its popular schools at the end of the Qing Dynasty as is commonly taught. Rather it happened much sooner. According to the information I recieved it happened at the third generation of the Seven Star line (Lee San Chien aka Lee the "Lightning Fist") and from there into only three schools the Seven Star, the Tai Chi, and the Plum Blossom. These are the only styles which are "recognized" in China, all others are considered to be "illigitimate" children of Wong Long.

This verified some of my ideas on Praying Mantis History, and at the same time raises new questions...

Namaste.

[Ericsepishii]

Wow,

Very interesting information indeed.

[Vertiggo]

Taiji Mantis,

What is the difference between 7-Star, Tai Ji & plum blossome mantis and for that matter how are they similar? Why would the other mantis systems (such as six harmoney, 8-step, secret gate, wah lum)be considered illegitimate?

D'you know, d'you know, d'you know???

-a curious mind

[Taijimantis]

I have some reservations about calling people like Chan Pui "illegitimate", especially when his banner hangs in my Training Hall under the approval of my Sifu, whi is "legitimate" as a Tai Chi Master.
I will be looking into this in detail at the end of this semester, after the holidays.

The first question...
Speaking only from a knowledge of TCPM and 7*PM, there was no difference in the beginning. The differences now are slight and have evolved over the generations.

My sifu told me that the Kung Fu aspect of TCPM is seven star. "No different." he said.

Namaste

[cha kuen]

7 star mantis forms are connected and use more crushing steps. TCPM forms are more broken and use a lot of hops rather than crushing steps. Their fighting concepts are the same. Whether the other styles of mantis are legit or not, they all have the same principles and movements.

[8stepsifu]

Because we trace our lineage to Plum Blossom. 6 Harmony is not because it is a cross between 7 star and plumflower. PM styles that didn't directly come from Wong Long or his decendents(so to speak) are considered illigitamite. I have never heard of Shining board, but if they can trace it back to one of those three, then it's ok. According to our tradition, there was no Tai Chi Mantis, Only 7 Star and Plum Flower, but things could happen before or after so just because we don't know of it, doesn't make it any less valid or plausible

8Step Sifu

[Taijimantis]

This much, I am aware of.

The question is this; Why are the Plum Blossom, Tai Chi, and Seven Star the "legit" ones? What are the political situations that caused this to happen?

Another is the question of when the split occurred, and why there are so many variations of the story?

All Northern Mantis is very similar, and it has changed from the contributions of it's masters over the generations.

[Taijimantis]

8 step Sifu...

You must have been positng the same time I did, and I should tell you that MY feelings on the subject are that it is not my place to decide if something is "legit" or not.

Personally, I am trying to come up with the common truth on Northern Praying Mantis as a whole. We all claim to be descended from Jo-Si Wong Long. The politics surrounding the split fasinate me, as do the historical discrepancies.

To the best of my knowledge, it is entirely possible that your view of the split is correct and that there was no Tai Chi Praying Mantis, as it is my understanding that the Tai Chi was not incorperated into the system until it reached Chi Shou Jun and Wong Gok Din. Realisticly it may not have existed "officially" until then. As I said earlier, Ly Sifu says that the Kung Fu aspect of the system is Seven Star.

In any case I look foreword to putting some names to these Chinese Grandmasters to try and better understand the story behind all of this.

Any other input is greatly appriciated.

namaste

[ShaolinMantis]

I was told also that in fighting Taiji & 7 star are the same. Which would agree with Ly Sibak. Differences are training, power delivery, dealing with Power from an attack ( meaning asorbing an attack, deflecting rather than blocking, footwork /lighter steps )

[Taijimantis]

Si-Hing
Thanx for the newsletter (and the support) it looks great!

When I see Ly Sifu on Thursday I will show it to him and ask him if he wants to participate.

As per the styles being the same, this was verified by the seven star sifu I spoke with. He is a very kind and generous man. He questioned whether or not I should be getting information from him about Tai Chi Mantis, but when I explained the purpose (that is determining the historical origins) he was more than willing to help, adding that as a Sifu of Seven Star, he should be better schooled in the other styles, so he too is anxious to see what I turn up.

namaste

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Not to encourage any fighting...but there are a few reasons why some my discredit a style.

Perhaps the three big styles of mantis have the longest history and the most practicioners. More popular can mean more well known. Also, maybe the most skilled kung fu practicioners were in the three main styles, where the other styles could have lacked this.

An example of is how many Hong Kong people say there is no such thing as "bat gik" (ba ji). Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but by looking at the previous points, you can understand why it's not very accepted there

[Fu Manchu]

Please define what you mean when you refer to a mantis style being illigetimate?

Mantis is unlikely to have developed in isolation of other styles during that time, given that it shares similar characteristics to other Northern Systems susch as tai Chi, HsingI etc. Accordingly, how did the original brand of mantis earn its legitimacy in the first place?

Given that you have claimed that Tai-Chi Mantis is a legitimate branch and it is a combination of two styles, then what are the conditions that have been violated that prevents a more modern branch of mantis from being legitimate?

[Taijimantis]

All I can tell you is the sketchy information I have, and that needs to be followed thru on.
I was simply told that the other styles were not "recognized" I dont know what that means yet.

[wisdom mind]

but seriously its good to be seeing posts about lineage discrepancies being handled sofar with no attacks or personal bashing...keep hooking yall.

[Shaolin Master]

Well Liu He Tanglang is really a composite of
TangLang Xing Yin Liu He Quan.

So that is understandable.