Wing Chun Wooden Man training, useful or not?

[LoneTiger108]

Just sprung this from another thread and thought it deserved a little poll.

Do you find your wooden man training useful in your preparation for combat?

If so, why? If not, why?

Please share your learning experience (who taught you?) and how you have developed since that first day of being allowed to even touch one! What do you use it for today?

Discuss...

[SAAMAG]

Most people don't realize the actual purpose for the wooden dummy to even answer this question properly anyway.

On the surface, it's just another way to practice the movements of wing chun. With the dummy you have an instrument that can provide you with subtle feedback on your stance and structure.

From the neija perspective, there's a reason why it's not hit at full power, and there's a reason why it's not used to "condition" the arms. The reason is because the dummy is meant as a tool to develop a natural heavy hand (or internal power) You tap it naturally...projecting the intent of your energy into the center of the dummy. Even the movements on the dummy's arms should be directed toward the center / base. From this perspective the dummy is meant to further ingrain the movements of wing chun hand forms, structure alignment, and footwork like the saam gok ma. It develops soft power.

From the wujia perspective, the dummy can be used to condition the body, harden the fists, arms and legs. This type of training can give you a cardiovascular workout, it can toughen up the skin, and in essence becomes very much like a heavy bag, but with the arms and leg providing an obstruction to work around.

All in all however, the dummy is still a dead tool. Using it requires use of ones imagination because you're not getting any true stimulus for action with the dummy. So while the dummy can help with structure, stepping, muscle memory, skin and bone conditioning, internal power, and the like...it does not help with timing, working off triggers (reaction), or how to counter counters for example. It does not teach you the finer points of fighting interaction, continuous spatial orientation, or recovery from getting hit, for example.

The dummy has its uses...but skill in fighting can be had without using the dummy at all.

[Vajramusti]

I don't understand the need for this thread. A mook jong is an integral part of wing chun training
in Ip Man wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, it's useful. Sharpens some technique, and most of all, it helps toughen forearms. And if you pad the WD - you can punch, palm strike, elbow and knee pretty hard - which is also a good toughener for those areas.

But all that said, I wouldn't recommend spending too much time working with the WD (maybe once a week or so)...because training with a live partner is waaaay more beneficial in its realism.

[Knifefighter]

Counter-productive and develops bad habits.

[SAAMAG]

Dale,

I agree it's an antiquated learning tool, and that fighting skill can be attained without it...but how SPECIFICALLY is it counter productive and what SPECIFIC bad habits are developed?

Generally, bad habits are a result of practicing incorrect application. Example: Bruce Lee used to talk about in his books that if you try to train finer movements when you're tired your technique will not be as crisp or correct and doing this too much can lead to your body "memorizing" the bad technique. Hence he recommended training fine movements when fresh and work on more gross movements when tired. E.G. if you practice hitting the heavy bag with your hands down, you're more than likely going to spar that way as well...and then get hit....a lot.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that the real issue is whether the time could be better spent. If you spend 20-40 minutes on a dummy per week, that is 5-10 rounds on the bags, sparring, or drilling out of movement.

[Knifefighter]

I agree it's an antiquated learning tool, and that fighting skill can be attained without it...but how SPECIFICALLY is it counter productive and what SPECIFIC bad habits are developed?

It ingrains counterproductive movements into the neuromusculular pathways that are not useful in real application against resisting opponents.

As far as what specific habits, pretty much each one done in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqeqNOlxOQ

All that is doing is teaching someone what not to do when fighting.

Watch a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Then watch him in a fight. His movements and strikes will be very similar to what is being done on the bag. The bag reinforces the neuromuscular pathways needed for fighting.

Watch a WC practitioner fight. His fighting will look nothing like you saw on that clip. The Mook Jong reinforces counterproductive movements that cannot be realistically performed in full-contact fighting.

[SAAMAG]

Wow. I wish I could unwatch that clip. He's even doing it wrong from a wing chun standpoint (at least the way I know it). He's banging the arms sideways and has no intent in his movment, no power from the legs/ground, he's not there mentally either.

I understand where your perspective is now and concede that you're not going to learn natural fighting movement using the dummy. But at the same time that's not the goal of using the dummy either. The dummy is a form set that uses a apparatus as a training aid. Later, you apply the dummy movements with real partners, where you "make the dummy movements come to life".

I don't suppose you knew about that part? The dummy work is just part of the process

[Knifefighter]

I don't suppose you knew about that part? The dummy work is just part of the process

Yes, I know about that part. That's like learning to do an arm bar with your legs apart, the opponent's elbow down, and holding onto the wrong part of his arm. When you have to learn to apply it for real, you have to unlearn everything you've practiced. Makes no sense to learn bad habits in the beginning.

[SAAMAG]

Yes, I know about that part. That's like learning to do an arm bar with your legs apart, the opponent's elbow down, and holding onto the wrong part of his arm. When you have to learn to apply it for real, you have to unlearn everything you've practiced. Makes no sense to learn bad habits in the beginning.

No it'd be like learning to apply an armbar on a grappling dummy and then on a real person.

[Matrix]

I don't understand the need for this thread. A mook jong is an integral part of wing chun training
in Ip Man wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

Joy, I totally agree.
My Wing Chun is not dictated by polls.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, okay Dale, leave it to you to pick out a WD vid like that.

You want to see a really good example of how to use the WD? Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdn55U2vDY

[k gledhill]

It ingrains counterproductive movements into the neuromusculular pathways that are not useful in real application against resisting opponents.

As far as what specific habits, pretty much each one done in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqeqNOlxOQ

All that is doing is teaching someone what not to do when fighting.

Watch a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Then watch him in a fight. His movements and strikes will be very similar to what is being done on the bag. The bag reinforces the neuromuscular pathways needed for fighting.

Watch a WC practitioner fight. His fighting will look nothing like you saw on that clip. The Mook Jong reinforces counterproductive movements that cannot be realistically performed in full-contact fighting.

many are trying to use the wrong ideas, so i agree there...if you think the dummy is 'kwan sao' or 'moves' the your going to end up kickboxing in sparring.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, okay Dale, leave it to you to pick out a WD vid like that.

You want to see a really good example of how to use the WD? Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdn55U2vDY

Once again showing something that is at the very least a waste of time, and, more likely, something that just ingrains bad habits.

You are right, that's an even better example of how someone doesn't fight.