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Thread: Could and Should the Mook Jong be Updated?

  1. #1
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    Could and Should the Mook Jong be Updated?

    In WC the things that the Mj provides are certainly important. In the absence of a training partners, it might be a good option.

    Although, I think that random MJ-like training apparatus can be rigged up that have a more realistic feel. For example my buddy padded a 4x4 post and lashed a dowel rod to it with some extra airline tubing from an aquarium. I liked the springiness of the arm when practicing various WC movements like tan, gum, and jut. The length of the arm allowed us to practice head movement. Maybe MJ might be dated, but the general idea of a big wooden thing to practice your WC on isn't completely ridiculous.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    I've used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms "force" you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
    Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
    I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard "anatomically correct" body would be better.
    I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it "moves" with my strikes and it should be well weighted.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I've used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms "force" you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
    Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
    I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard "anatomically correct" body would be better.
    I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it "moves" with my strikes and it should be well weighted.
    Agreed.. But an "anatomically correct body" isn't what the jong was going for, it's creating specific angles and zones to move through, around...
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Agreed.. But an "anatomically correct body" isn't what the jong was going for, it's creating specific angles and zones to move through, around...
    The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be "correct" and "direct".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be "correct" and "direct".
    Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.
    Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.
    It offers all zones so you can move through all zones.. If you don't move your body into these various zones then it doesn't translate.. You don't do VT so of course it doesn't translate to what you do, understand or even attempt to understand because your sole purpose here is to troll.
    Jim Hawkins
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    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

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    I'm not a wing chun guy and i don't know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don't know, i'm working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
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    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    I'm not a wing chun guy and i don't know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don't know, i'm working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.
    The idea is that it doesn't move (turn) in order to force you to move.

    The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point.....
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    The idea is that it doesn't move (turn) in order to force you to move.

    The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point.....
    It was just an idea...
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.
    I disagree with your disagreement.
    LOL !
    In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
    Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
    The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I disagree with your disagreement.
    LOL !
    In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
    Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
    The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.
    How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

    It can't.. If you think it can then how?

    Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    It was just an idea...
    No problem... Keep thinking!

    I made a dummy arm thing when I started training. Late at night I would attach it to the telephone pole outside my house and work my moves... My device (which I still have) used a solo-flex joint to allow the arm to move with resistance..

    In the end what you find is that there is really no substitute for training with a live resisting partner.
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

    It can't.. If you think it can then how?

    Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.
    Well, it can't do ALL but as much as possible, for as many correct angles as possible.
    We don't fight smooth trees, we fight bodies with cavities and angles, with shoulder and elbows.
    Those things make a big difference in a fight, a low line attack that goes perfect on the dummy, get "blocked" by an elbow that is always there on an arm, but never there on the dummy.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #15
    The Wooden Dummu used in TWC is built so that the body of it will actually move (slide left-or-right) when hit or kicked hard from an angle - and this is an improvement that I reccommend to all wing chun stylists - as the movement will more closely resemble an opponent's reaction.

    In addition, I've padded the entire WD (except for the arms and leg, of course) - so you can go full power, which is also an improvement: again more realistic training. (And I've come to prefer often using very thin, semi-fingerless bag type gloves in this regard - so that I now can hit, kick, elbow, and knee as hard as i want.

    In addition, sometimes I remove the arms and leg and basically use the WD as a kind of heavy bag that will move laterally when blasted.

    As for the actual WD moves and sequences - I believe one should always be experimenting in this regard, so that you're using the entire WD as a kind of spontaneous shadow-boxing apparatus that you will actually contact and improvise on.

    And on a final note, and as mentioned on another thread, I don't believe that anything more than once (or possibly twice) a week sessions on the WD is beneficial (once you've learned the sequences)...since working with a live partner is always a more beneficial training.

    Keep this in mind, though: One of the biggest advantages to using the WD is the opportunity to develop powerful striking at short range while contacting a limb with the arm you're not striking with, ie.- near simultaneous block-and-strike...

    as well as using the same arm that may have just redirected or parried an opponent's limb to continue on into the opponent's body or head for a strike: again, a short range training device to work on powerul strikes and bridging all at the same time - from close range.

    Once you finally get it that wing chun is meant to be used primarily as a close range striking system - you've been liberated from the idea that it can do things it's not very efficient at...and seeing it for what it really is - it becomes better in its application.

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