Wing Chun, mma, and the future

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from 'wing chun' guys." (Things like bong, pak, lop, garn, bil, lan, near simultaneous beat and one half attack & defense, vertical fist punches with the elbows down and in close to the sides, the Vitor Belfort variation on the same, etc.) -Ultimatewingchun


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

***WOULD LIKE TO answer Paul's post, and also talk about power generation - since this has become a hot topic on recent threads as well.

Let me put it this way:

I think ANOTHER version of wing chun that will make it into mma fighting (already called Alan Orr's style A version)...okay...another version of wing chun will be something similar to JKD - although I strongly hesitate to call it by that name, since I think that this will have a more decidedly wing chun look and feel to it once in close quarters (and at times from long range) than JKD.

But that said, and acknowledging up front that there will be a boxing, MT/clinch fighting and wrestling/grappling aspect as well...

I think that Bruce Lee's idea about power side forward - along with fighting out of a 50/50 weight front stance - and with a pronounced boxing type footwork with lots of spring coming off the back foot (and with some adjustments in such footwork for the purposes of kicking)...

while using the rear hand to occupy and guard the centerline/central line - that is...when not throwing punches with the rear hand, you're using it to parry, block, redirect, pak, lop, bil, etc...

and the lead hand - but as said coming from your power side will be the key offensive striking weapon - and one that will be using various BOXING type punches, ie.- jabs, stiff leads, round punches, hooks, overhands, uppercuts..

(not that the rear hand won't be used in this way also - along with big rear crosses - and not to say that combinations with both hands won't be thrown - because they will be).

In addition, both the lead and the rear hand can easily be (and will be) turned into wing chun vertical and 3/4 horizontal punching - and yes, at times in a straight blast chain punch fashion at certain ranges and moments.

Furthermore, in what I'm going to call the "possible clinch zone" you'll see some chi sao and WD type moves being used to strike, control, pressure, and yes...stop the guy form grabbing you...ALONG WITH ...MT clinch fighting and..out-and-out wrestling/grappling when either appropriate or unavoidable, ie.- pummeling for underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, etc....

shoots, sweeps, and takedowns, and so on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Simple minded would be wanting people to believe what you are saying when there is no evidence to support it.
.................................

(And Jim's response):


***But there is evidence and logic in VT mechanics..

According to what Alan teaches--he uses these very mechanics.. He espouses that the VT 'full body structure' is superior to modern boxing mechanics because VT structure remains between your opponent and yourself (clinch defense), while incorporating full body power (and ground connection) into all strikes.
__________________
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, then is he using WC or not? Can't have it both ways.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I haven't seen him fight..

I have seen some of what he teaches and I agree that a good deal of that is VT..

On the other hand who cares what I think, the bottom line is that it makes sense, does follow the art and does not agree with your stated (and re-stated) position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I already said he (and his students) is using his WC to fight. Weren't you one of the people who said he wasn't?

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I said was that clinching, and a guillotine is not VT.....not part of a "hidden movement" (as suggested) in BiuJee, etc, no that's not VT..

The VT aspects, (striking/standup) in that environment seem very fleeting in most cases, esp when folks want to clinch.

[Ultimatewingchun]

***WHICH is probably why Niehoff has decided that wing chun "is attached fighting".

Not saying that good clinch work is unnecessary or bad policy (I believe in mma concepts of standup/clinch/ground)...

but to make the claim that just coming in for strikes or for a clinch is the only way to make wing chun work in an mma setting is bull.

There's a lot more to wing chun that can be used than just punching while pressuring forward for a clinch.

And Niehoff doesn't get this because he doesn't know anything else about wing chun that can work in an nhb mma setting.

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Since I don't want to hijack Vankuen's thread, perhaps we can continue here with the discussion about what in wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc. will work in an nhb mma setting.

And what the future might hold in this regard.

Furthermore, perhaps we can also post some vids here of wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc. in action; meaning....fighting tournaments.

Tournaments with takedowns allowed, or not allowed, etc. With ground fighting allowed, or not allowed...

as the case may be.

You have to start somewhere. Today, perhaps striking and kicking only. Tomorrow, clinch fighting as well. The day after, takedowns and a 10 second groundfight rule.

And the day after that....nhb/mma. Whatever.

Let's talk about it.

[YungChun]

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

I see several different kinds of expression happening among different groups... You have Alan's group, Phil's group and the other examples on the net, plus more that we haven't seen..

Each group has a certain focus but I don't have a problem calling each version their version of VT...

Many of the VT fighters are just starting out and will change and improve over time, their method will evolve...their VT will evolve..

And of course the venue and rules as well as the focus each group has will influence the results..

I see VT now in early stages of trying to find its place in MMA and other full contact venues.. I think there are enough dedicated folks (dedicated to the VT method) that we will continue to see VT mature and find its place..

Those saying no one fights, there are no VT fighters, no one is training hard, etc, are simply in error.. And as time goes forward IMO they will be in greater error.

[SAAMAG]

Dude did you just reply to your own thread 7 times?!

[Ultimatewingchun]

7 is a very lucky number, man....

[SAAMAG]

Hmmm...what if you get shot 7 times? Still lucky? ; )


Alright! Sorry for highjacking! I'm out!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, Jim...I like your post, and agree with 99% of it.

Here's the 1% that I would say needs some adjustment.

You refer to ALL wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc...as VT.

Now VT stands for Ving Tsun, and only that.

And having done VT for 8 years with Moy Yat, and after doing TWC for the last 27 years (My God, May 16th will be exactly 35 years)...

I can tell you that they really are two systems - for the most part. And what Robert, Alan, and their guys are doing is a different system - for the most part.

And there's Wing Tsun, HFY, Weng Chun, Pan Nam, Yuan Kay San, etc. etc.

Sure there's plenty of overlap between most systems/styles. But there are signature differences that should be recognized as such.

Not saying what's better or worse, just recognizing the differences.

[YungChun]

Btw, Jim...I like your post, and agree with 99% of it.

Here's the 1% that I would say needs some adjustment.

You refer to ALL wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc...as VT.

Now VT stands for Ving Tsun, and only that.

And having done VT for 8 years with Moy Yat, and after doing TWC for the last 27 years (My God, May 16th will be exactly 35 years)...

I can tell you that they really are two systems - for the most part. And what Robert, Alan, and their guys are doing is a different system - for the most part.

And there's Wing Tsun, HFY, Weng Chun, Pan Nam, Yuan Kay San, etc. etc.

Sure there's plenty of overlap between most systems/styles. But there are signature differences that have to be recognized as such.

Not saying what's better or worse, just recognizing the differences.

Well normally I refer to all "Wing Chun" when I write VT.. I changed the label I use to VT because that's mine..

I have my own personal ideas about the art and ways and what I prefer method wise as well..

I don't always agree with what some do but I accept what they do as their VT so long as there is some kind of VT core there.

[Frost]

"I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from 'wing chun' guys." (Things like bong, pak, lop, garn, bil, lan, near simultaneous beat and one half attack & defense, vertical fist punches with the elbows down and in close to the sides, the Vitor Belfort variation on the same, etc.) -Ultimatewingchun


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

***WOULD LIKE TO answer Paul's post, and also talk about power generation - since this has become a hot topic on recent threads as well.

Let me put it this way:

I think ANOTHER version of wing chun that will make it into mma fighting (already called Alan Orr's style A version)...okay...another version of wing chun will be something similar to JKD - although I strongly hesitate to call it by that name, since I think that this will have a more decidedly wing chun look and feel to it once in close quarters (and at times from long range) than JKD.

But that said, and acknowledging up front that there will be a boxing, MT/clinch fighting and wrestling/grappling aspect as well...

I think that Bruce Lee's idea about power side forward - along with fighting out of a 50/50 weight front stance - and with a pronounced boxing type footwork with lots of spring coming off the back foot (and with some adjustments in such footwork for the purposes of kicking)...

while using the rear hand to occupy and guard the centerline/central line - that is...when not throwing punches with the rear hand, you're using it to parry, block, redirect, pak, lop, bil, etc...

and the lead hand - but as said coming from your power side will be the key offensive striking weapon - and one that will be using various BOXING type punches, ie.- jabs, stiff leads, round punches, hooks, overhands, uppercuts..

(not that the rear hand won't be used in this way also - along with big rear crosses - and not to say that combinations with both hands won't be thrown - because they will be).

In addition, both the lead and the rear hand can easily be (and will be) turned into wing chun vertical and 3/4 horizontal punching - and yes, at times in a straight blast chain punch fashion at certain ranges and moments.

Furthermore, in what I'm going to call the "possible clinch zone" you'll see some chi sao and WD type moves being used to strike, control, pressure, and yes...stop the guy form grabbing you...ALONG WITH ...MT clinch fighting and..out-and-out wrestling/grappling when either appropriate or unavoidable, ie.- pummeling for underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, etc....

shoots, sweeps, and takedowns, and so on.

mma has now been around in the usa for about 20 years, in the mainstream for over a decade. dont you think that we would have seen this so called evolution by now if it was going to happen?

not to mention san shou has been around in china for even longer, and full contact events in taiwan were going on in the 70's.... how come we have not seen this wing chun striking evolution in those formates?

the fact it apart from a boxer and a karate guy no one at the top level can be seen using anything tha even resembles wing chun, and at a lower level people on this board can't even agree if what the guys like alan are doing is wing chun.

as for intergrating wing chun into clinch it has not happened by now its not going to happen there are anti clinch fighters out there but they are not using anything like wing chun.