Wing Chun, mma, and the future

[Ultimatewingchun]

The environment that most interests me is the street environment. Bareknuckled, shoes stay on (ever catch a hard rear heel kick to your knee from a guy wearing shoes?)...phoenix knuckle strikes...purposely targeting the groin with kicks and knee strikes...elbows to temples and faces, etc.

Training with lots of protective gear (and sometimes without it) and coming as close as possible to all of the above when sparring is what I believe in most of all.

Which has always been the single biggest reason why so many of the people I've trained (like the 6 mentioned previously) have come for MANY years to my school - they appreciated the realism.

And we have actually simulated the more dangerous moves I've described (light-to-very-little contact) many times in my classes, ie.- groin kicks, phoenix knuckle strikes to the body with no gloves, elbows to the face while wearing head gear with the metal cage (and with elbow pads to protect the attacker, etc.)

All that said, I'm also a very big fan of UFC, PRIDE, STRIKEFORCE, etc. from day one...and training a few students to eventually go into mma-type comps is still something that I'd like to do at some point down the not-too-distant road.

Okay, so with that back drop:

No, I don't think...I know that a boxing/wing chun/wrestling approach works. In the street, and within my school while training/sparring with not just my students through the years (the best of whom all had backgrounds in things like boxing, karate, TKD, kickboxing, wrestling)...but also some jiu jitsu guys I've worked with from outside my school, some karate guys, some guys trained in boxing who were not part of my school, etc.

And after reading so many of my posts by now, Dale Frank, if you don't know exacty what it is within wing chun that I believe brings something special and a bit different to the table within an mma (or street) setting - you're never going to know - and I have no interest in having to repeat it again and again.

Which brings me to you, Frost.

I'm not getting involved in responding to yet another troll, or mma know-it-all, or chest beater, or out-and-out bull5hit artist...(you decide which category(s) you fall into).

So if you want more answers from me: I suggest you go back and research many of my previous posts.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As said, I started working boxing and catch wrestling into the program in a serious fashion back around 2002 - in an attempt to mix wing chun with other arts. But here is a clip from 1993...
And one of the 6 students I've alluded to, Michael Mundy, (who is also one of the guys who will be attending regularly once again when I re-open in Manhattan)...

won a contact sparring (but point system) tournament. This was the second of two matches he fought that day.

As you can see, even then we were working with some things that were a bit outside of the wing chun (TWC) box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-lZTCpnLCg

Btw, one of the guys standing in the background, the one wearing a black and white shirt with a thin black tie and black pants - with a few words to say at the end - that was me.

[Frost]

Which brings me to you, Frost.

I'm not getting involved in responding to yet another troll, or mma know-it-all, or chest beater, or out-and-out bull5hit artist...(you decide which category(s) you fall into).

So if you want more answers from me: I suggest you go back and research many of my previous posts.

troll, know it all, chest beater or bull$hit artist...umm let me see can i be of the above please lets see i have listed before the gyms i train at, i have said what i have and have not competed in, is that what a troll does these days?

I suppose if we want to talk about trolling and bull$hitting we could go over your old posts ... you know the ones where you tell guys with blackbelts and purplebelts in BJJ what BJJ is and how it can be beat etc....even though you have never competed in grappling anywhere...shall we start with those posts ?

Or if its proof of being a chest beater and a know it all you are after how about telling people what will be the next big thing in MMA when you don't even train it or compete in it ....or how about posting videos about how to deal with a hook when you have never boxed or even trained in the art. Is that something a chest beater and know it all would do?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Someone asked if "WE" need to prove our WC in a MMA enviroment.
The answer is NO.
If one is happy doing what they are doing that is all that matters.
However, if one is doing a MA ( any MA) as a means of self-protection and to be able to fight to the max of their ability then YES, those skills MUST be tested and they must be tested to and at the highest level possible.
Better to fail in the ring and fix it, then to fail in the "street" and pay for it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's a real good post there, sanjuro.

[trubblman]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

[m1k3]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

What do you base this on? How about a BJJ guy that trains 3 hours a week? If you have never done it you don't know. There are lots of people who train BJJ and MMA has a hobby, less than 6 hours a week. Go your local MMA school and ask to spar. This can be a friendly match up and I am sure there are several people there who would be glad to go a couple of rounds with you.

[Knifefighter]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

It isn't rare for an amateur MMA fighter with a full-time job to train 4-5 hours per week.

[YungChun]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

10 times zero is still zero..

In other words it's more the quality of the training vs the amount.. You can train poorly 100 hours a week and it won't help..

I maintain that folks need better stronger basics, a strong foundation AND more realistic training.. Then all the problems/limitations go away to the extent possible given whatever is covered...

[t_niehoff]

10 times zero is still zero..

In other words it's more the quality of the training vs the amount.. You can train poorly 100 hours a week and it won't help..

Good point.

That's why, as Dale pointed out, amateur MMA fighters can get good results training 4-5 hours a week.

I maintain that folks need better stronger basics, a strong foundation AND more realistic training.. Then all the problems/limitations go away to the extent possible given whatever is covered...

In my view, if someone wants to develop good fighting skills they need to approach their training in a completely different way than how WCK is typically taught/trained -- the old TCMA-model of teaching/training has proved to produce very poor results for the majority of practitioners. Instead, they should adopt a teaching/training approach that has proved to produce very good results for the majority of its practitioners - the functional/sport model.

[Frost]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

Thats a cop out its not the time they spend training that would be the reason they beat you, its the quality of the training.

as others have pointed out amature MMA guys hold down jobs and don't train as much as people like to make out (MMA pay sucks unless you are in the UFC) its quality not quantity of training, all their training is geared towards making them a better more skilful fighter.

Its amazing how good guys can get with very little weekly training if that training is functional

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats a cop out its not the time they spend training that would be the reason they beat you, its the quality of the training.

as others have pointed out amature MMA guys hold down jobs and don't train as much as people like to make out (MMA pay sucks unless you are in the UFC) its quality not quantity of training, all their training is geared towards making them a better more skilful fighter.

Its amazing how good guys can get with very little weekly training if that training is functional

Quite correct, if the vast majority of time is spent of functional and specific activities, most any physical endevour requires far less time to be applicable than most people think.
Pros that put in 15-20 hours a week are doing much more than pure functional work, they are going above and beyond.

[Frost]

Quite correct, if the vast majority of time is spent of functional and specific activities, most any physical endevour requires far less time to be applicable than most people think.
Pros that put in 15-20 hours a week are doing much more than pure functional work, they are going above and beyond.

true one of the fighters i know when he finally got pro coaches was amazed that both his MMA coach and S and C coach suggested he cut his training to allow time for recovery, and low and behold he became better and was less injured

[LoneTiger108]

I thought this may be of interest to some of you guys

http://www.senishow.com/JC%20Santana.jpg

Certain 'proof' that conditioning has it's place when training competitive fighters?

[Frost]

I thought this may be of interest to some of you guys

http://www.senishow.com/JC%20Santana.jpg

Certain 'proof' that conditioning has it's place when training competitive fighters?

didn't he blow his ACL out whilst demonstrating some of his MMA conditioning stuff on a swissball a few years ago