Sooo...perhaps boxing and wing chun aren't so different after all?

[Wayfaring]

Point being, if you are training with guys who lock in a plum and you are trying and succeeding in countering that plum with the technique you described, you are training with guys who are not very good in this realm. The fact is, a halfway decent plum is hell to get out of, and you sure aren't going to do it by spreading the opponent's arm.

Once a plum is locked in with someone good, you're along for a ride. It's not just the grip lock, it's the hanging all the weight on it as well as the active movement turning you with weight and knee strikes when your step hits the ground.

There's more openings as they are moving to lock it in, but in my experience you have to turn to one shoulder forward to get through the hands to the opponent's neck - kind of shoot it through as they are locking it. The other thing that's worked for me that I've been taught is if you can get your hips in tight to them with forward pressure enough to clinch around their back before they are able to lock the plum and do the initial snap-down you can prevent the lock.

Another main problem from someone good is they don't just reach for the plum, but they'll strike their way in close - the thai punches and elbows and then follow a punch in with the plum clinch.

That plum clinch is a b1tch to deal with from someone skilled. Silva destroyed Rich Franklin with it. Buakaw por Pramuk has pretty much forced different enforcement of rules in international thai fights due to his clinch. It's a game changer for sure.

Check out a few among these highlights:
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vid...97-71601029411

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's the problem with this thread: In their quest to want to believe that you can find answers to just about anything and everything within wing chun - a lot of people are buying into Terence Niehoff's delusions.

Once you're in clinch mode, or semi-clinch...you have to start thinking like a wrestler/grappler, a Thai boxer, and to a certain extent - a western boxer.

Does that mean that you throw wing chun out entirely? No.

But you have to be aware how quickly and easily that "semi" clinch can become a full clinch, or become a plum neck tie with the knee strikes soon to follow. Or how easily this could become a single leg shot, or a double leg - or a number of moves that wing chun is not geared to work against.

Because wing chun is NOT "attached" fighting - which is one of Niehoff's many delusions. With elbow strikes being it's (wing chun's) primary weapon. I mean, this guy is just nuts.

Are there some similarities between certain wing chun movements (and concepts) - like tan sao, for instance...and other hand/arm moves from other styles? Yes.

But don't be fooled by this.

Once in clinch, or semi clinch, or plum, or on the ground...some wing chun might be a nice addition to what you need to do...but that's all it is: an addition.

Your primary game at these points will come from wrestling/grappling, MT, and perhaps some western boxing.

Wing chun's primary game is at slightly longer distance - wherein punching is your main weapon, and some palm strikes, some elbows, some knee strikes, some low kicks, perhaps - but mainly PUNCHING.

And some bridging...as a means of helping you PUNCH.

But once some serious grabbing is going on - as in semi clinch, full clinch, plum, takedowns, etc.

take the wing chun hat OFF. And put on another hat. And maybe some wing chun will be called upon to act like a pair of ear-muffs. Maybe.

But it's a different hat.

[YungChun]

Victor are you telling me that in the opening move of the forms with the crossed wrists up, that's not a VT plum??? C'mon now...

[anerlich]

Victor are you telling me that in the opening move of the forms with the crossed wrists up, that's not a VT plum??? C'mon now...

Only a theoretical nonfighter would not see straight away that it was a VT collar choke

[Matrix]

Only a theoretical nonfighter would not see straight away that it was a VT collar choke

Theorectically speaking, of course.

[Knifefighter]

There's more openings as they are moving to lock it in, but in my experience you have to turn to one shoulder forward to get through the hands to the opponent's neck - kind of shoot it through as they are locking it. The other thing that's worked for me that I've been taught is if you can get your hips in tight to them with forward pressure enough to clinch around their back before they are able to lock the plum and do the initial snap-down you can prevent the lock.

Yep... those are the most high percentage moves.

[Frost]

All good and well, but you, apparently, are doing the same thing you accuse others of doing... training with guys who aren't very good.

Point being, if you are training with guys who lock in a plum and you are trying and succeeding in countering that plum with the technique you described, you are training with guys who are not very good in this realm. The fact is, a halfway decent plum is hell to get out of, and you sure aren't going to do it by spreading the opponent's arm.

have to agree here was training with a regional thai champ today in the clinch, when he had it locked it it was hell to escape, peeling his head, runnng him into the cage whilst blocking the knees or cowbarring over his hands and across his face was about the only thing i could do, spreading the arms and thing like repummeling a hand in are great in theory and if you can react quick enough but very low percentage against a good fighter

[sanjuro_ronin]

have to agree here was training with a regional thai champ today in the clinch, when he had it locked it it was hell to escape, peeling his head, runnng him into the cage whilst blocking the knees or cowbarring over his hands and across his face was about the only thing i could do, spreading the arms and thing like repummeling a hand in are great in theory and if you can react quick enough but very low percentage against a good fighter

A good fighter gets ANYTHING Locked in, you are in trouble.
Like any hold, what needs to be done is to counter it BEFORE it sinks in a get's locked.
Of course, easier said than done.

[Frost]

A good fighter gets ANYTHING Locked in, you are in trouble.
Like any hold, what needs to be done is to counter it BEFORE it sinks in a get's locked.
Of course, easier said than done.

agreed and that is the ideal, When ever my coach is ask how to escape something he always starts with not getting in the position in the first place, thats where always having the shoulders shrugged, instictively getting the hips under the head and one leg forward helps.

However my main point was that alot of the escapes don't work on people who are good, and what you can get away with when training with bad people does not really help you when you actually come across someone who knows what he is doing.

How many people do you see teach escapes whilst not even knowing what the plum actually is, they grip the neck not the head, interlock the fingers, have no pressure on the head and don't move the opponent around, escaping these types of clinches is not that hard, you need to try this (like everything else) against someone who knows what they are doing.