Sooo...perhaps boxing and wing chun aren't so different after all?

[Frost]

How about like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqaAehf1VA

lol owned

[k gledhill]

The system is developing good elbow positions thus making the forearms the parrying areas, IOW the acute angles of the elbows in pre-striking positions or 'not extended' strikes makes them [forearm area] act as a second set of hands, making it possible for the fist/palms to strike at the same time the correct forearm side is used to slide in or past a simultaneously deflected arm.
Further because the strikes naturally intersect along X-ed angles we create by naturally flanking we can simply strike in with lat sao chit chung to explode off arms untrained like ours and fire into openings without withdrawing the hands or hesitating to think 'hit'. Allowing us to maintain constant pressure of cycling strikes regardless of what is done to the lead arm.

Why our juts are done with the forearms underneath, the tan elbow spreads making the outside forearm push force outwards as the hand strike forwards...the jum elbow inwards, keeps the forearm inward too to use the same ideas....
While attacking each arm tan & jum will create the same force directions iow our left tan right jum striking in either rotation will create a line of force to shut down a guys left side ....

elbows control the alignment and make the hands free to parry to the line or strike, rather than the force we use go out to the hands and wrists traveling laterally , while we need the wu sao to make the strike alone....

subtle but one cant strike and defend with the same striking arm if the elbows aren't trained early on....but a guy trained in the elbow idea can do both ways as required....simultaneous as elbow training allows or coupled striking arm AND pak, jut, gaun etc...

dont understand ? you should ; )

[SAAMAG]

Boxers don't fight with the elbows up.

As far as power development, that is mostly a factor of how much body rotation you apply when you throw strikes. The more body rotation, the more power (think shotputters, discuss throwers, baseball players- both hitting and throwing, etc).

In unarmed combat, there is a trade-off between the power needed that comes from body rotation and the necessity not to overexpose oneself that comes with complete rotation.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the text you quoted. Boxers don't fight with their elbows up...but they don't punch in vertical fists with the elbows down either (save for certain folk's method of jabbing). But that's what I'm talking about with "elbows down".

[m1k3]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the text you quoted. Boxers don't fight with their elbows up...but they don't punch in vertical fists with the elbows down either (save for certain folk's method of jabbing). But that's what I'm talking about with "elbows down".

Van, a good boxing jab or cross should be elbows down up to the near the end when the fist turns over. When I was learning to box, throwing a jab or a cross with the elbows up was referred to as chicken winging it, and it was not considered a good thing.

[shawchemical]

Every time that guy posts, he pretty much demonstrates that he knows nothing about fighting.

Guess you're kindred spirits then...

[Ultimatewingchun]

".. hooks are some of the hardest punches going, you transfer you whole body from the ground into the fist through a solid structure, a majority of knockouts in boxing come from hooks and uppercuts." (Frost)
.............................

***Which is exactly why, since these two types of punches are basically short range - and wing chun is basically a short range striking system...that incorporating such boxing moves into your wing chun game makes so much sense.

And I'm still trying to figure out why some wing chun folks want to look into the system to find "something like" moves like these.

Here's a hint: You're never going to throw a better hook or uppercut than what boxing does...so call it what it is: boxing - added to your wing chun.

And move on.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . Here's a hint: You're never going to throw a better hook or uppercut than what boxing does...so call it what it is: boxing - added to your wing chun.

And move on.

WC has hooks and uppercuts and so do other other Chinese martial arts.

[SAAMAG]

Van, a good boxing jab or cross should be elbows down up to the near the end when the fist turns over. When I was learning to box, throwing a jab or a cross with the elbows up was referred to as chicken winging it, and it was not considered a good thing.

Good point...and that's a common method; but even within the boxing circles there are quite a few different methods of doing even a jab, let alone a cross. There's the rotating jab (as you've stated), a diagonal jab, the vertical jab (like a wing chun punch), the overhand jab where the hand is turned with the thumb down...etc etc. Jabs where you step, where you don't step, blah blah.

Point being different boxers do it different ways--though they're all generally the same (i.e. you'd recognize it for what it is). Coaches all have their own theories as well. But yea generally though boxers will rotate to an overhand position like karate guys will with reverse punches as you've stated. Thanks for pointing that out!

[SAAMAG]

".. hooks are some of the hardest punches going, you transfer you whole body from the ground into the fist through a solid structure, a majority of knockouts in boxing come from hooks and uppercuts." (Frost)
.............................

***Which is exactly why, since these two types of punches are basically short range - and wing chun is basically a short range striking system...that incorporating such boxing moves into your wing chun game makes so much sense.

And I'm still trying to figure out why some wing chun folks want to look into the system to find "something like" moves like these.

Here's a hint: You're never going to throw a better hook or uppercut than what boxing does...so call it what it is: boxing - added to your wing chun.

And move on.

I'm entertaining the notion that wing chun has the same tools...but that people just don't use them properly. I mean I could be completely off base too, but its mainly just for thought provoking conversation.

If people did punch with their body and not worry so much about the "gung fu" label of it isn't it plausible they'd look like boxing more than likely anyway? A straight punch is a straight punch. A hook is a hook, and uppercut is an uppercut. The chung choi comes out straight, the wang choi comes from the side, and the chou choi comes from below using rising energy from the stance. There's really not so many ways to do these sorts of punches from an energy and vector perspective (minor nuances aside like the stuff I mentioned with the jabs).

So if you look at Phil's guys in the clips--they throw hooks--and those hooks are knocking people out. They look a lot like boxing hooks too, but I'd venture to say Phil didn't teach them boxing when the technique is right there in the 3rd set.

[goju]

what a load of nonsense!!

ive thrown hooks hard enough on pads that ive injured by partners arms

lol where do people get this crap from?

and yes youll find hooks and upper cuts in the majority of asian ma

[Ultimatewingchun]

No kidding, guys...

But if you really want to master throwing hooks and uppercuts - you look to western boxing, first and foremost.

And if you really want to master the best setups, combinations, angles, and footwork connected to hooks and uppercuts - you look to western boxing, first and foremost.

Duh ??? !!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So if you look at Phil's guys in the clips--they throw hooks--and those hooks are knocking people out. They look a lot like boxing hooks too, but I'd venture to say Phil didn't teach them boxing when the technique is right there in the 3rd set." (Vankuen)
...........................

***AND I'd also venture to say that Phil Redmond isn't teaching them boxing hooks.

There are some boxers who train in Keith Mazza's school (where Phil teaches out of).

Hint: Don't believe everything you read. Believe your eyes, though.

[Knifefighter]

Good point...and that's a common method; but even within the boxing circles there are quite a few different methods of doing even a jab, let alone a cross. There's the rotating jab (as you've stated), a diagonal jab, the vertical jab (like a wing chun punch), the overhand jab where the hand is turned with the thumb down...etc etc. Jabs where you step, where you don't step, blah blah.

Notice that no matter how the jab is thrown, you won't hear boxers saying, "That wasn't boxing."

[Knifefighter]

So if you look at Phil's guys in the clips--they throw hooks--and those hooks are knocking people out. They look a lot like boxing hooks too, but I'd venture to say Phil didn't teach them boxing when the technique is right there in the 3rd set.

LOL @ labeling the exact same punch either boxing or WC.

Even more ludicrous is trying to extrapolate a technique from a form and then saying it came from WC.

[YungChun]

What about the VT whipping punch? It is not a hook but it's also not straight...

Any round punch Boxer's normally call hooks no? And regardless of how you throw a hook a Boxer would never say that's not Boxing right?