Wing Chun Full Contact Fights

[mjw]

This is an old clip, and if anyone knows the WC fighter and lineage please post it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0F...eature=related

I'm pretty sure this is the same guy off some youtube clips and his site.
I can't read the language it's written in so I can't tell you him lineage however he seems to mix in a bit of MMA with his WC/VT not that there is anything wrong with that so long it works for you in my opinion.

www.vingtsun-belgium.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQTBArJYRVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2lkG...eature=related

[Faruq]

Wow, how'd you find it?

[mjw]

Wow, how'd you find it?

I've seen him on youtube before so I just looked around a little bit......

[mjw]

This is just real heavy training but I like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkFEC...eature=related

[AdrianK]

This is just real heavy training but I like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkFEC...eature=related

Can't stand that clip.

It seems like someone who basically trained Wing Chun, didn't "get it", and decided to compensate with aggression and strength.

And thats fine for some things, but just because its hard and rough, doesn't mean its good. There's no skill there, there's no wing chun. And its not 'not' wing chun because you don't see them adhering to the forms and the templates, its not 'not' wing chun because there's no developed skills. No grabbing, no sticking, no parrying, and not even any decent balance.

Finally, the throws/ground work is laughable.

So his strikes are crap, his ground game is crap, his throws and clinching is crap.

The whole clip is just crap =) I mean, its great if you want to work that, the ground game and throws and everything are awesome to work, but if you don't know wtf you're doing, you just look like a fool...

[Buddha_Fist]

Can't stand that clip.

It seems like someone who basically trained Wing Chun, didn't "get it", and decided to compensate with aggression and strength.

And thats fine for some things, but just because its hard and rough, doesn't mean its good. There's no skill there, there's no wing chun. And its not 'not' wing chun because you don't see them adhering to the forms and the templates, its not 'not' wing chun because there's no developed skills. No grabbing, no sticking, no parrying, and not even any decent balance.

Finally, the throws/ground work is laughable.

So his strikes are crap, his ground game is crap, his throws and clinching is crap.

The whole clip is just crap =) I mean, its great if you want to work that, the ground game and throws and everything are awesome to work, but if you don't know wtf you're doing, you just look like a fool...

Technique and structure aside, I think he's getting one of the most important aspects of Ving Tsun more than many on this board. He focuses on doing what will end a fight - striking. One of the main premises in Ving Tsun is not to chase hands, yet most of the actions you are looking for (grabbing, sticking, parrying) are just that, chasing hands. There is a lot of chaos in an altercation and things happen very fast, there is no time to have a mindset that is not conducive to ending a fight. If you think about grabbing (and we are not talking about grappling) while your opponent is focused on punching, your chances decrease dramatically.

[AdrianK]

Technique and structure aside, I think he's getting one of the most important aspects of Ving Tsun more than many on this board. He focuses on doing what will end a fight - striking. One of the main premises in Ving Tsun is not to chase hands, yet most of the actions you are looking for (grabbing, sticking, parrying) are just that, chasing hands. There is a lot of chaos in an altercation and things happen very fast, there is no time to have a mindset that is not conducive to ending a fight. If you think about grabbing (and we are not talking about grappling) while your opponent is focused on punching, your chances decrease dramatically.

I agree that a focus on striking is incredibly important to any striking art, absolutely. I'm not saying he should be chasing hands, I'm saying he should take the opponent's movement to gain the advantage. If he can outstrike him, great. But you don't see great boxers saying "There's no point in evasive footwork", or "there's no point in counter punching".

The problem with blind aggression is that you leave yourself open. Ya know, its great if you're bigger and/or stronger/faster than the other guy, or you just want to win more. In altercations with your average nobody, blind aggression works fine. Actually, it works great.

But why train wing chun, boxing, wrestling, or any martial art, at all then? Just buy a punching bag, some free weights and supplements or steroids and you're golden.

That being said, the vertical punch is hardly the most effective punch for those types of confrontations anyway.


Anyways, its like this, where's the meat of wing chun? To be structurally sound while we fight (Stances, Footwork), to strike the openings (elbows, kicks, punches, eye gouges, grabbing), and the ability to counter and control the opponent.

The ability to counter and control the opponent comprises a significant part of the WC Curriculum. Its Lop Sao, Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Gan Sao, Jut Sao, Biu Sao, etc. etc., Its Chi Sao, Its Chi Gerk.

So yeah, striking is an incredibly important part of the curriculum lost on plenty of people. But what is blind striking? Its being unaware of your openings in a fight. You cannot roll punch your way out of every situation. A decent wrestler can destroy this guy. A decent counter-puncher in boxing can destroy this guy.

I'm not asking the guy to focus on countering and controlling. But he should at the very least be aware. If you're striking someone you should be aware and ready to take any opening they present. Otherwise, all things equal physiologically, the guy has no advantage over his opponent, and opens himself up to get taken down or counter punched.

[Buddha_Fist]

...can take the opponent's movement to his advantage... counter and control...Lop Sao, Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Gan Sao, Jut Sao, Biu Sao, etc. etc., Its Chi Sao, Its Chi Gerk...

Is there any video that shows the above points as you describe in free sparring?

He lacks structure, balance, footwork, and Ving Tsun technique from my particular point of view, but he still adapts to the incoming attack by yielding through footwork while continuing his counterattack. I don't think that he acts blindly or in a dumb manner at all. He takes advantage of what is working great with somebody who cannot deal with his actions. We don't know how he would adapt to somebody with more skill, we can just speculate...

[Phil Redmond]

I've noticed the criticisms of people's fight clips. Before I fought full contact. I would often say.."why didn't he do that,.. I would have done that differently,..he wouldn't have hit me like that,,...he's doing that wrong......etc." Until my first full contact match and I got hit by a guy who wasn't my classmate and was trying to wreck me. It's easy to sit on the sideline and criticize without having to risk bodily harm in the ring or whatever.
Now I do understand that a person doesn't have to be an expert in a field to know what "looks" right. That works for many things. But with regards to fighting you have to be in there getting smashed by someone while you're trying to get your techs off.
Having said that. I believe if you are willing to make a comment on how a fight should've or should be done please feel free to supply a video of you doing it the right way against a resisting opponent outside of the comfort zone of your school or friends. That way we can all learn the right way and not continue doing it wrong. After all, it'd be wrong to point out mistakes without showing the corrections.

[Buddha_Fist]

Touché. Lack of sparring translates in unrealistic expectations of what happens in an uncontrolled situation. A lot of people expect to see Chi-Sao, as if that was fighting.

[AdrianK]

Is there any video that shows the above points as you describe in free sparring?

He lacks structure, balance, footwork, and Ving Tsun technique from my particular point of view, but he still adapts to the incoming attack by yielding through footwork while continuing his counterattack. I don't think that he acts blindly or in a dumb manner at all. He takes advantage of what is working great with somebody who cannot deal with his actions. We don't know how he would adapt to somebody with more skill, we can just speculate...

Is there any video is key here.. With WC, not really. We've got Alan Orr's guys who fight and compete, and demonstrate some pretty killer structure, balance, footwork and control.

As far as everything else goes, yeah, watch some high level MMA matches, watch some high level boxing matches. Why aren't there guys just in there throwing constantly? Oh yeah, because they're using their footwork to control distance, they're constantly trying to create openings with angles and punches, not blind aggression, being ready to defend with head movement, distance control and hands.

I'm not expecting guys to go in and fight at the low levels and look like that, absolutely not. Everyone has to start somewhere. But in this case its a sparring video, and whats sparring for? To work on your fighting ability. Going in blind to "win" does nothing for you, or for your sparring partner. Its why there's controlled aggression in a normal boxing or MMA sparring session. Homie is up against the ropes and can't do anything? You lay off or go easier to give him an opportunity to learn. Feel like you're leaving yourself open? Try and be more careful, yeah, you might get caught with a couple shots, but you learn that way.

It does nothing for you in sparring to just go in there swinging for the ropes. You literally learn nothing. If you're working on being aggressive, fine, cool, but thats hardly a "skill" to show off.

[Phil Redmond]

My Grandstudent's second fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-un...el_video_title

[Buddha_Fist]

There is no video showing Ving Tsun as you're describing as it won't happen in that way.

[AdrianK]

There is no video showing Ving Tsun as you're describing as it won't happen in that way.

Not asking them to fight like a boxer, but to show the strengths and ideas of the system. Boxers can do it, BJJ guys can do it, Wing Chun guys can't?

[m1k3]

I've noticed the criticisms of people's fight clips. Before I fought full contact. I would often say.."why didn't he do that,.. I would have done that differently,..he wouldn't have hit me like that,,...he's doing that wrong......etc." Until my first full contact match and I got hit by a guy who wasn't my classmate and was trying to wreck me. It's easy to sit on the sideline and criticize without having to risk bodily harm in the ring or whatever.
Now I do understand that a person doesn't have to be an expert in a field to know what "looks" right. That works for many things. But with regards to fighting you have to be in there getting smashed by someone while you're trying to get your techs off.
Having said that. I believe if you are willing to make a comment on how a fight should've or should be done please feel free to supply a video of you doing it the right way against a resisting opponent outside of the comfort zone of your school or friends. That way we can all learn the right way and not continue doing it wrong. After all, it'd be wrong to point out mistakes without showing the corrections.

LOL, good post Phil.

Last week at grappling class I was flat on my belly with both arms around my opponents leg and him laying on top of me. Someone yells from the sidelines "Get on your up on your knees". I'm thinking "no sh1t". If I could without giving up the leg I would have.

Most things in life are easier said then done.