The Wing Chun Enigma (streetfighting)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, lots of people will disagree and perhaps even take offense to this, but wing chun is a very limited fighting style, since it's based on very close quarter striking, and basically nothing about it has anything to do with fighting in the clinch or on the ground.

Notice that I said nothing about it's limitations from longer ranges than very close standup striking range. Something that I've talked about numerous times on this forum.

Because most (if not all) streetfights are going to close the distance from long to short range very quickly. There are basically no Muhammad Ali type streetfights, or kickboxing type streetfights either. That kind of thing is very, very rare in everyday life.

So for close quarter, standup streetfighting, wing chun can be very good. It has it's limitations (ie.- no clinch or ground material)...but for what it is, it can be very good, depending upon the person using it of course.

But in a ring/cage/mma setting...it's limitations become even more apparent. Not just because the fighters in such events have more room to maneuver, and are doing do so on a perfectly smooth and non-hostile surface - but because they are better trained than the typical guy on the street, who quite often charge in swinging wildly or going for some half-a55ed grab or football tackle.

Not that wing chun doesn't have some good moves to put on a more sophisticated striker, but stories of wing chun street success (and I'm not necessarily doubting the stories)...is often based upon facing the typical non-seriously trained streetfight mentality/abilites coming at you.

The enigma is that wing chun PURE AND SIMPLE...has pluses and minuses that are highly misunderstood.

Discuss....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree, WC is a highly specialized "fist", like SPM for example.
Here is the thing, if a system doesn't work in the ring, with a set confine for both fighters and with set environment and even time to train for a fight, how can it possibly work in the street with No rules and a variable environment with an unknown opponent?
The answer is that, when it works, the opponent was NOT very good.

[Frost]

I agree, WC is a highly specialized "fist", like SPM for example.
Here is the thing, if a system doesn't work in the ring, with a set confine for both fighters and with set environment and even time to train for a fight, how can it possibly work in the street with No rules and a variable environment with an unknown opponent?
The answer is that, when it works, the opponent was NOT very good.

i agree these arts worked fine in an enviroment when others practised short arm styles that were similar in nature: did not want to clinch and throwfor example but these days people fight differently with a different emphasis and if the arts can't evlove then maybe they should die out

[sanjuro_ronin]

i agree these arts worked fine in an envirnoment when others practised short arm styles that were similar in nature: did not want to clinch and throwfor example but these days people fight differently with a different emphasis and if the arts can't evlove then maybe they should die out

Many of the points of these short arm systems was to "counter the bridge" and typcially that bridge was either a "LONG" strike or an attempted grab and under these situations, they work very well.
The problem is that systems like WC and SPM (Bak mei and lung yung too) is that they NEED to be cross-tested outside their comfort zone.
This was NOT a problem in the past but is one now.
The more specialized the hand, the more cross system testing needs to be done.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The problem is that systems like WC...NEED to be cross-tested outside their comfort zone. This was NOT a problem in the past but is one now. The more specialized the hand, the more cross system testing needs to be done." (sanjuro)
.....................

***AND THE RESULT of such cross system testing is/will inevitably be crosstraining, imo. Through the years I've worked against guys with boxing skills, karate and kickboxing skills, wrestling and jiu jitsu skills...

and the demands of dealing with what goes on today go waaaay beyond what wing chun was originally designed to do. Yes, it's a specialized art.

Has a lot to offer in it's close quarter standup (non-clinch) range, but needs some form of crosstraining (and of course continued cross testing) to evolve and flourish in the 21 ft century.

Perhaps the biggest enigma of all at this point in time is how and why is it that so many wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun people are so slow to see this?

MMA, with all it's faults and deficiencies, should nonetheless be opening people's eyes. Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (as people like Terence are wont to do)...but to see what can be kept, what discarded, what modified, and what to add from other systems.

This requires an honest look at the system, without being blinded by wing chun street success against streetfighter types - and without the anti-wing chun mindset that comes from training in other systems or having failed to learn and develop good wing chun when you did do it back in the day.

[Knifefighter]

Has a lot to offer in it's close quarter standup (non-clinch) range, but needs some form of crosstraining (and of course continued cross testing) to evolve and flourish in the 21 ft century.

Perhaps the biggest enigma of all at this point in time is how and why is it that so many wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun people are so slow to see this?

No, the enigma is why so many WC guys fail to see that it is actually a pretty effective outside defensive fighting system, but starts to fall apart at closer range.

Watch most WC guys fight. Many of them can actually be pretty good at keeping people outside. Things start to fall apart (or they have learned to use other tools from other systems) once things get inside. The WC guys who have adapted use the clinch, boxing, Muay Thai, takedowns, etc. tools on the inside. The guys who have not adapted, usually have those tools used against them on the inside and get shut down.

Watch your own clips. Most of your WC techs were used further out as defensive counters. As soon as you got inside, you went for the takedown because that's where your WC falls apart.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No, the enigma is why so many WC guys fail to see that it is actually a pretty effective outside defensive fighting system, but starts to fall apart at closer range.

Watch most WC guys fight. Many of them can actually be pretty good at keeping people outside. Things start to fall apart (or they have learned to use other tools from other systems) once things get inside. The WC guys who have adapted use the clinch, boxing, Muay Thai, takedowns, etc. tools on the inside. The guys who have not adapted, usually have those tools used against them on the inside and get shut down.

Watch your own clips. Most of your WC techs were used further out as defensive counters. As soon as you got inside, you went for the takedown.

***COME ON, Dale...those clips are against a guy 5 inches taller and 40 lbs. heavier. Of course I was being cautious about coming in on him. Didn't you revisit the 2nd vid as I suggested? Didn't you recognize the close quarter moves I was using in that sequence...the one I suggested looking at with the sound off? In particular the first 5 seconds of that vid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=win-6R7_JrM

By that part in the sparring I was pretty comfortable in seeing what it was he was trying to do, and I was able to use a whole bunch of close quarter wing chun moves (ie.- bil, pak, pak, bong/wu-lop, gum, palm strike)...

If I was sparring another guy more my size, you might have seen a much more aggressive approach to coming in, and staying close once I got there...without necessarily going for a takedown.

I get your point about training (crosstraining) for all ranges...have been in that mindset before you even appeared on this forum...and I've always agreed with you that crosstraining is a must once you did appear.

[shawchemical]

"The problem is that systems like WC...NEED to be cross-tested outside their comfort zone. This was NOT a problem in the past but is one now. The more specialized the hand, the more cross system testing needs to be done." (sanjuro)
.....................

***AND THE RESULT of such cross system testing is/will inevitably be crosstraining, imo. Through the years I've worked against guys with boxing skills, karate and kickboxing skills, wrestling and jiu jitsu skills...

and the demands of dealing with what goes on today go waaaay beyond what wing chun was originally designed to do. Yes, it's a specialized art.

Has a lot to offer in it's close quarter standup (non-clinch) range, but needs some form of crosstraining (and of course continued cross testing) to evolve and flourish in the 21 ft century.

Perhaps the biggest enigma of all at this point in time is how and why is it that so many wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun people are so slow to see this?

MMA, with all it's faults and deficiencies, should nonetheless be opening people's eyes. Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (as people like Terence are wont to do)...but to see what can be kept, what discarded, what modified, and what to add from other systems.

This requires an honest look at the system, without being blinded by wing chun street success against streetfighter types - and without the anti-wing chun mindset that comes from training in other systems or having failed to learn and develop good wing chun when you did do it back in the day.

You are so wrong in your assertions on this point. Cross training doesn't mean incorporating those techniques into wing chun, but learning how the techniques are used, and utilising the tools within VT to better deal with them accordingly. This is a personal development, not something which VT has a problem with. It's not a specialised combat system any more so than Muay thai or boxing or BJJ, other than its use of direct rather than circular strikes.

In clinch range is exactly where it thrives. And closing from long range is precisely what it is good at, so your assumption that these are flaws of the combat system make little sense at all.

The goal is not to fight someone where they are comfortable, but to impose your own will on the man, as you wish it and not as they feel comfortable.

Yes we need to honestly look at what is being done, but this question should be DID I IMPLEMENT my tools effectively or not, if yes, can I make it better or if no, Was the technique correct, or did something I did mean that it was either incorrect at the time, or could it have been done better using another tool?

This comment"and the demands of dealing with what goes on today go waaaay beyond what wing chun was originally designed to do. Yes, it's a specialized art." is your most ridiculous.

To consider that when developed, death was a real possibility in any confrontation against someone trained in any system gives little credence to your comment. The question you have to ask yourself is given the LOWER challenges of what goes on today, what is different in application, I would offer the suggestion that the quality of training intensity can probably explain much of the associated weaknesses you feel exist.

[Knifefighter]

It's not a specialised combat system any more so than Muay thai or boxing or BJJ, other than its use of direct rather than circular strikes.

Ummm... Muay Thai and bjj ARE specialized systems.

To consider that when developed, death was a real possibility in any confrontation against someone trained in any system gives little credence to your comment.

Death in an confrontation is probably more of a possibility today than it was then.

[YungChun]

No, the enigma is why so many WC guys fail to see that it is actually a pretty effective outside defensive fighting system, but starts to fall apart at closer range.

I think most of us agree with this.... It depends though on what we mean by close range, etc.. VT does NOT want to be that close (clinch) for the most part.. although there is a single bow-tie in the classical art..

Watch most WC guys fight. Many of them can actually be pretty good at keeping people outside. Things start to fall apart (or they have learned to use other tools from other systems) once things get inside.

Again it depends on what is which range--how close is close. For most stand-up fighters VT wants to be very close, but to most grapplers VT does NOT want to be that close (clinch)..

VT's preferred distance is IMO the range where you can strike your opponent without taking any step to do so..and just a tad closer (for penetration of strikes)... AKA the Kill Zone..

VT wants to get into that zone safely (and stay there, often with angling/contact) and then unleash a centerline barrage of attacks (and energy) in a short time... and that's mainly it... Setting aside the inside leg work designed to impede the opponent's movement and something even fewer folks seem to train.

Again, as per another post.. I ask why don't we see more folks at least attempting to apply their VT and not (once we are really fighting) suddenly look like they never trained VT? IOW few attempts to even try to apply the basics, forget about how well it works, because if you didn't even attempt using the VT then there is no way to judge its effectiveness.

[Knifefighter]

Again, as per another post.. I ask why don't we see more folks at least attempting to apply their VT and not (once we are really fighting) suddenly look like they never trained VT? IOW few attempts to even try to apply the basics, forget about how well it works, because if you didn't even attempt using the VT then there is no way to judge its effectiveness.

And I posted 3 clips of guys attempting to apply it.

As for the guys who don't attempt it (the guys in the MMA environment), by the time they have reached the level of being able to compete in MMA, they have figured out that they cannot use it against MMA fighters and need to switch to a somewhat different approach. Their training preparation usually teaches them that.

[YungChun]

And I posted 3 clips of guys attempting to apply it.

Okay well I don't think your serious about the topic except to trash all that is VT.

Attempting to apply techniques, tactics means you see those things either work or fail in fighting...

It does not mean repeatedly going over clips with a microscope just to find even one VT tool, weapon or tactic..

As you pointed out: It's very easy to see MT, WB, BJJ, etc, in real fighting.. It is just as easy to see VT in fighting if it is there.. Whether it works or not is another issue..

A little easier to see more VT tactics at work here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo

Also easier to see them here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M

Should have explained to them that it wouldn't work before they went to all the trouble of kicking azz with it...

[LSWCTN1]

I agree, WC is a highly specialized "fist", like SPM for example.
Here is the thing, if a system doesn't work in the ring, with a set confine for both fighters and with set environment and even time to train for a fight, how can it possibly work in the street with No rules and a variable environment with an unknown opponent?
The answer is that, when it works, the opponent was NOT very good.

you have to remember that street fighting is VERY different.

stamina is rarely an issue. by the time you have to draw on your reserves the police are there taking you both away...

street fights only take ONE good shot. on the whole.
there is often a lot of 'fluff' in between until one person gets that one good shot. EVERYONE knows that one punch specialist... thats why people who have some sort of realistic training tend to do better - they can spot and capitalise on that opportunity

does anyone think that different systems have spent probably hundreds of years developing their own IP ideas and it not really work.

you harden the hands, you hit with a more solid mass. more KO chance. simples!

but by all means, sparring and competition is an excellent way to test your skills outside of your comfort zone.

good example is the olympic TKD guys. most of them are useless and look ridiculous. most other TKD is the same. there ARE odd exceptions however that can make the TKD they teach their students work.

competition is good, very good in fact. but it is NOT the be all and end all

[sanjuro_ronin]

you have to remember that street fighting is VERY different.

Yes, in the street, typicaly,the other guy is NOT a trained fighter.

stamina is rarely an issue. by the time you have to draw on your reserves the police are there taking you both away...

I would disagree with this from what I have seen, I have seen way too many guys "gas" in fights, oh the start off ok, thinking all it takes is a good shot, problem is they don;t have it and after wailing for 30 seconds, they gas.

street fights only take ONE good shot. on the whole.
there is often a lot of 'fluff' in between until one person gets that one good shot. EVERYONE knows that one punch specialist... thats why people who have some sort of realistic training tend to do better - they can spot and capitalise on that opportunity

ANy fight just takes ONE good shot, the problem is GETTING that one good shot.
Outside of sucker punches or a trained fighter VS a scrub, you don't see it and youtube, as an example, is full of proof of that.

but by all means, sparring and competition is an excellent way to test your skills outside of your comfort zone.

That is what they are for, to an extent and if use properly.

TKD is an example of all that can be wrong with competitive MA.

competition is good, very good in fact. but it is NOT the be all and end all

Agreed.

[t_niehoff]

There is no enigma. Most WCK people are terrible fighters because THEY DO NOT TRAIN LIKE FIGHTERS. Period.