Amazing catch wrestling vid

[Ultimatewingchun]

This vid is from 1930...and in it, 1924 Silver Medalist Nat Pendelton really shows some skills.

The vid is 8:30 long...and in the first part he's boxing with someone...but then at around 3:40 in the vid things start to get really interesting as he takes on a boxer as he just wrestles...and then the last sequence is an out-and-out catch wrestling match with someone who's un-named.

We're talking some very interesting stuff here: covering up while coming in on a puncher into single leg takedowns with sweeps...sliding leg-on-leg takedowns...arm bar submissions...top wristlock submissions...double wristlock submissions...and double wristlocks into roll-over takedowns and then into a headscissors...front headlocks and escapes...side headlock takedowns...Frank Gotch-like toehold submisisons...double arm scissors...some very skillful bridging, escapes, roll outs, and reversals, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsoQuxD0Ac

[Sardinkahnikov]

Wow, so St. Helio didn't, like, totally invent groundfighting?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Noooooooo.

Nooooooooo.

Mitsuyo Maeda is the man who taught jiu jitsu/judo to Helio and his brother...and Maeda was one of Jigoro Kano's best students.

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...

before he went to Brazil in 1916.

To be completely fair, though...there was some cross-training going on. For example, what we call today the "armbar"...was referred to by American and British catch wrestlers back in the day as the "Japanese armbar".

[Sardinkahnikov]

Noooooooo.

Nooooooooo.

Mitsuyo Maeda is the man who taught jiu jitsu/judo to Helio and his brother...and Maeda was one of Jigoro Kano's best students.

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...

before he went to Brazil in 1916.

To be completely fair, though...there was some cross-training going on. For example, what we call today the "armbar"...was referred to by American and British catch wrestlers back in the day as the "Japanese armbar".

Hah, chill dude, I was just being sarcastic.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I know you were...

My remarks were meant for those people who might still think that catch isn't real, or that it isn't effective.

[LSWCTN1]

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...

incorrect...

Count Koma lost numorous times, and in REGIONAL shows too...

maybe they were 'worked' (the downfall of UK wrestling) but he did lose nontheless.

catch wrestling is a conglomeration of UK regional wrestling, even more so nowadays. One thing i have always wanted to know is why Helio never challenged any of the world title contenders, was it a time scale thing or was it a genuine knowledge of their skill.

i KNOW he challenged Kimura but kimura was a Japanese champion. the catch wrestlers of the age were WORLD champions.

it brings me to a point i make frequently about our art Victor; like attracts like.

so, that means that if a group of succesfull fighters in Brazil (the Gracies) do well then they are going to attract like minded individuals... ie fighters. thus, the ART will then flourish. but it doesnt mean that the other ARTS are not good or valid

[monji112000]

I know you were...

My remarks were meant for those people who might still think that catch isn't real, or that it isn't effective.

Catch doesn't really exist in a manner of speaking, its a dead folk style of wrestling (mostly).

The major practitioners do not participate on any form of competition, excluding one person I have heard of (Josh Barnett). Even with the CSW crowd a large part of the system is mixed with BJJ (don't confuse it with Gracie JJ). Eric is a ranged in BJJ. The Best "catch" guys are people who have taken other folk wrestling (namely "American" or western wrestling (some form of "American wrestling" ). I know its still popular in Japan, but again its been mixed with what people call today call wrestling. Most of Catch is found in BJJ and Judo. What isn't normally consists of neck cranks, and other illegal and less effective techniques. Anything worth while is quickly added to modern grappling, and normally isn't just "catch" anymore. Most people who train BJJ are willing to cross train, and learn a new trick. The reality is catch really doesn't exist anymore with modern grappling. Sorry You ever actually compete with your catch wrestling? or is competition not allowed because the techniques too dangerous for competition?

I actually really like training with people who say they do catch, something show me some cool stuff. BUT normally they don't exclusively do catch, because again it doesn't exist as a separate style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very good instructional/demo clip.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not dead, monji...

On the contrary, it's making a resurgence the likes of which haven't really been seen openly for many, many decades.

And no, the best catch guys are catch guys.

That doesn't mean that they haven't learned how to work against the guard - or incorporated some guard work into their own game when on the bottom. But they are catch guys.

Go to youtube and put in the name: Billy Robinson, for example.

[monji112000]

It's not dead, monji...

On the contrary, it's making a resurgence the likes of which haven't really been seen openly for many, many decades.

And no, the best catch guys are catch guys.

That doesn't mean that they haven't learned how to work against the guard - or incorporated some guard work into their own game when on the bottom. But they are catch guys.

Go to youtube and put in the name: Billy Robinson, for example.

ah ok.. so billy robinson competes currently? hmm no guess not..

Please let me know any top level grapplers even in mid level.. someone who steadily competes using just Catch that does already have a deep background in another grappling art.

I have visited and trained at a few diff places that say they are catch.. they normally are the CSW or the Tony Cechine type.. I like the CSW people but thats really a mixture of a few different styles.. Tony doesn't compete, never did, never will.. Erik had tested his stuff, and I fully respect him. Erik trains with a wide variety of people, and has a very open mind. He is ranked BJJ, he trains with guys like Rigan Machado, and other styles that include some catch influences.

Outside of CSW I don't see anything.. please give me some examples, and show me how I'm wrong. I'm more than interested in learned something new and changing me mind.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"ah ok.. so billy robinson competes currently? hmm no guess not." (monji)
..........................

***Ah, gee...last I heard the UFC turned him down on account of the fact that he's now in his 70's...

but perhaps you've heard of a guy named Kazushi Sakuraba?

Or how about a fellow named Josh Barnett?

They have both trained with Billy Robinson precisely because they wanted to learn CATCH.

And catch as catch can wrestling is CLEARLY recognizable as their respective grappling styles.

[Merryprankster]

I know you feel strongly about this, but it's all just such crap.

Grappling is grappling is grappling. Rule sets and uniforms define "style."

Good grappling = good grappling regardless of what name you give it.

Superior, doesn't work, does work. All bull****. There's nothing magical or special or better about any of it.

There's only good grappling, and bad grappling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You mean wrestling is wrestling, right?

[Merryprankster]

You mean wrestling is wrestling, right?

In the generic sense, yes :-)

[Ultimatewingchun]

So when BJJ guys pulled off some great guard work, for example, back in the early UFC days...

you would have said, that was great "BJJ", right?

But when someone talks of certain sweet "cacc" moves that might be pulled off....the labeling is now "crap", right???!!!

That's cute.