Body Structure Functional Application

[anerlich]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.

Now, is rooting part of body structure?

From an Aussie POV, where rooting is slang for s3x, these two quotes are amusing when juxtaposed. And apparently, M1k3, the answer is yes!

[k gledhill]

"As the story goes when you would chi sau with Yip man 3 things would happen - 1) he would never step back, 2) he would never hit you 3) you would always be off balance i.e. either on your toes (falling forward) or on your heels (falling back). Thats a big hint right there. This tells you that Yip man had structure as these are the three big give aways." I copy pasted this fromanother post....


When a student develops structure it is part of the chi-sao drill to try 'destabilize' each other to make the structures better...When you cant be moved off the ygkym thats a sign of very good stance structure...but we dont fight like this.
Hitting isnt required if the structure is being developed in certain chi-sao exchanges, iow I will push your arms to test if you push back, lean forwards to push etc...i can simply remove my arms and step backwards , just to see if you fall forwards...all to work to solid stance work for fighting use later, stable mobile stances.
If you are always off balance then your being made to work to STAY balanced, iow if I just let you stand there ...your not working kung fu you should feel it in your piriformis/glutes etc....the next day, sore arse means good stance training

We use basic seung ma toi ma as the progression to static development, I try to knock you on your arse by stepping in towards you before you can get your footing, but only for chi-sao drills, not how we fight...I can also progress to add toi ma offline and back ..this furthers your intuitive movement to an incoming arm from either side....we use tan versus jum/man as the angling technique, we can also use this angling to move offline as we counter entry to us if we arent attacking in...

WE use the chi-sao pushing pulling as a warm up to better our stances for unattached fighting entry and clashing later...if I can simply put my arm in your way and not hit you and you fall over, forwards off balance , etc....why should i hit you you cant even hurt me yet ....

we also add destabilizing shoves before moving away from a chi-sao contact starting point..iow from hands on in chi-sao , one partner will simply ,shove slightly forwards, then move back and to the side angling quickly, while simply holding man/wu so the partner who's just been shoved a little , has to regain the attempted destabilizing action and explode after the guy to attack hi lead man sao with eithe pak da or jut da or whatever your working....it really works the idea further, to stay with what goes...but first dont fall on your arse !


the goal is to fight with high mobility to remain in control of a face off, unattached striking using basic jut/pak entry or kick etc...simple strikes with body momentum behind them, coupled with a relentless forward attacking mind set....we need complete control over ourselves to deliver the techniques we use. We generate lateral forces that can unstabalize us ...so feet inwards , hips aligned pelvic tilt all go towards making us stabler....


ck uses the axis line as the pivoting line, we use the heels because you can stay aligned on the axis, we shift with small shuffle steps to control this line as we fight....we pivot shift angle etc...in balance while fighting from all the stabalizing by-products of the aforementioned drills...


its not so hard to understand.

sparring is more explosive , and with no stability your going to get turned quick lose balance have no ability to counter strike with any inner confidence that balanced movement gives one...

knife steps also add to give fast aggressive foot movement, combining toi ma shift/pivots with focused precision to give explosive counter actions that can easily destabilize the unprepared.

shocking force coming from the hands in ballistic displacing focus requires a stable stance or the force is lost .

[wkmark]

its not so hard to understand.

Agreed. It is not so hard to understand but for some people, it seems more complicated as they are not used to this type of structure.

[k gledhill]

One of the reason guys move to using the wrists and deflections at the wtists or rolling energy bs in chi-sao is becasue if they tried to do the stance testing by holding arms as they should in pre-striking positions ....and you dont withdraw an arm to strike in VT ... they would fall over , lose balance immediately....instead they go into chi-sao writs following , feeling bs..losing th stabilizing ideas for unattached fighting...trust me its a rude awakening to meet a guy whos done this for 25 years he doesnt need to hit you..because hes in total command of the situation, turning you into human origami.

Guys who use chi-sao as a place to do feeling sensitivity stuff will have their arse handed to them in a few seconds of sparring...they have been lost in the 2 extended arm exchange of hand slapping air tag. Without a solid attack base that can absorb attacking force, allow you to remain balanced and hitting with max force in a balanced state ..your deluding yourself...VT is this simple direct approach to fighting, sadly its lost to the majority of guys who get shown complete c r a p with rolling feely bs....

[shawchemical]

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise....weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons.....boxers the same, wrestlers the same ....is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature.....how can people make something so simple so complicated

i think that simple is possibly a good and a bad definition at this point.

Something may be simple to understand, but immensely complex to execute appropriately and precisely (like Chess).

Which probably goes a long way to explaining why some people think ti doesn't work, because they are not prepared to make the effort to condition their body to act in such a way that appears simple but requires much effort to execute such sometimes counterintuitive movements.

Like the idea of staying relaxed under extreme pressure. Wonderful Idea, essential as well, and yet when the crunch comes it is quite difficult at times to maintain that calmness when the adrenalin dumps and turns your limbic system into a panicked prey animal.

Simple does not mean easy. Just like the idea of forward force. Intuitively it seems simple, but without conscious focus to condition your body respond in that way can seem to be an insurmountable obstacle until the light goes on, and the conditioned response is that instinctive offensive action.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As a lot of people have already touched on, the term structure evokes a lot of conversation about a bunch of idiotic nonsense. For the last year I have seen endless debate using ridiculous justifications for how a person should stand when fighting. I have not been impressed by much.

All these discussions of immobile and/or one dimensional fighting shells is ridiculous. Any basic fighting shell needs to provide its user with mobility, balance, protection, and the ability to conserve energy. Everything else is is just a specialty stance and should only play a limited role in reality fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.
Originally Posted by chusauli
-----------------------------------------------
Huh?

That makes no sense at all.

Well, actually, as applied to BJJ that statement reminds me of something I heard thirdhand about Rickson teaching a guard pass - he was reported to say "hips in, make like fak".

What Robert is talking about here is with an elbow down punch to have power in it there is a wave motion that starts with the foward motion or torque of the hips. And yes, in shoddy WC people aren't taught that or don't pick up on it.

Although that's not a concept unique to WC. If you watch early Mike Tyson fights, his uppercuts and inside punches start with hip torque.

And this concept holds true in many sports contexts as well. In a good golf swing or baseball swing the hands follow the hips.

Hip or core movement is fundamental to many things.

[bennyvt]

it sounds mostly like a sales gimmic. I get the waist pushing forward. While i can't move very far it makes a big difference. We do this latter in the wall bag training. When i was at cliff au yeung school he showed me the exact thing and said wsl was really emphasising it in the latter years. But cliff used it like a one inch punch and his hips note heaps. But still keeps the straight back. I think he's double jointed. But if most people don't understand to push the waist forward them maybe you have a valid point. In just glad you answered the question. I thought body structure was have proper posture, using compound movements and correct muscle recruitment ie back straight, shoulders back, using large muscle movements not just isolated muscles. Didn't think i was just to put your hips forward. But i must say watching alan's vids the first thing i noticed was great posture.

[Frost]

Maybe in your experience this is so. I wrestled in public school, I never heard the term "structure", rather I learned moves and techniques, stand like this and when he does this you do that, no explaination really as to why we do these things and how the body functions better by doing it that way. I played and taught tennis, got pretty good at it and went to a world class training facility in Florida, I never heard the word "structure" mentioned, all we did was drill the basics, learned some strategy and played against one another.

I agree that WC was generally marketed as easy to learn. Some systems of WC are, as they are tailored to the general public in Mcdojo type schools, I worked and taught at a place for this for years. The majority of the students there (99%) were pure hobbist, never practicing at home nor thinking about it out of class, the remaining 1% excelled 500% better than the others. Over time I learned that WC is far from easy to learn, it is complex and hard to learn, maybe one of the hardest, but once you learn it is easy to exibit and bring forth within your own movement. Whether or not it is effective vs someone hell bent on hurting you is not something anyone here can answer, unless you have a crystal ball

The problem comes when we intellecutalize it and try to explain to one another what we are experiencing and learning on the physcial level. Human beings have a natural tendency to complicate whatever subject they come in contact with, finance, nature, politics, religion, whatever.

.So, concerning WC, the basic idea in is to learn a skill set, that begins with a bodily structure that connects the whole body together as a unit, but a unit that is not fixed(static) nor rigid (stiff). Without the structure your actions have no foundation or ability to transfer power or energy into your movements, whether they are offensive or defensive.

I agree there are some esoteric ideas and theory's about it all. Since WC is pretty specific in it's application (we are basically infighters), we need to develop certain attributes to make it work for us. If I apply a boxers structure and mechanics but am in or around the clinch range it won't work, just like WC structure/mechanics don't work outside the clinch range...yes we can still use the prinicples of the system, but the physical part does not apply there (why use facing concepts on the outside when I need to utilize reach more so..).

Now for us in the beginning we don't want to clinch, grab, hold on to our opponent, rather we need to learn how to strike, and control thru the striking to KO our opponent from that close range. Sounds easy, but the reality is it isn't..Yes one can learn MT to function here, but we aren't talking about MT.

James

Structure/the correct way to stand and move is taught in all athletic environments, in grappling its staggered or square stance, legs bent dinosaur arms shoulders shrugged etc, that is a structure correct? And it is taught from day one in most grappling schools and reinforced in training, elbows in, head up etc. In weight lifting it’s the same, squat stance, chest out, sit back, break at the hips not knees first, neutral spin. Head up etc, push through the heels not the toes so on and so on. Cues are constantly given but the basic stance/structure/way of moving is taught in the first lesson.

Boxing structure does work in and around the clinch, tight hooks, uppercuts, bumping with the shoulder to create space etc and throwing overhands etc...in fact one of the worst drills in sparring is boxing unattached at close range...ie you start shoulder to shoulder and remain attached there for as long as possible just throwing punches but not grabbing on, it sucks but is a great way to train inside fighting

[bennyvt]

i think the problem comes fro the teaching. I have done some bio mechanics, and through my fitness dip i was introduced to pilates and the alexander techniques. The main focus is on body cues. Meaning saying something to get the right result. Ie lift your head like someone is shaking you up by the head instead of head up, as normally the first will bring the whole back straight while the second normally just tilt the head and shoulders and back are the same. In stepping i say throw your waist, this leads people to step without leaving the back dont to far and tends to keep the back straight. I mean we describe things not how they should be actually done but describe it to dabi sermo differently so they do it right. Then just explain what is actually happening if they want to know or teach. Others. Like push with yous elbows. This is to teach people to use the correct sequence of muscle activation. Ie core, pecs/ lats internal rotators, triceps/ anconeus, forearm. This means that instead of an arm punch this is powered by all the muscles i am leaving out the bottom half due to time. In swimming it would be using you gluts to jail not the quads. I agree anyone with any personal training, s&c or athletis trainer should know and implement there tools. Like wrestling, keep the hips below his centre and push them into the person, this is structure just they don't feel the need to make it look so special as they don't try to advertise their new video series.

[k gledhill]

Same for us in VT , by telling the students to drive the hip and corresponding elbow you get the extension of the leg in short explosive unison due to the hip being projected forwards sharply to correspond with a raising bong elbow ...we focus on the elbow + hip unity but obviously are still incorporating the whole body . Using the hip thrusts as doggy style is a similar way to convey the concept of unity. Albeit a weird visual to have while drilling But I blame Roberts twisted mind on that one just imagine its Pamela Anderson and we have a winner for visual analogy .

When we do chum kil the whole form is introducing this hip thrust + elbow connection + momentum of body mass... either pivoting sharply as we face to strike, or move laterally to 'cut the way' aka move sideways across the facing opponent as we take an offensive position with strike & jut/pak + momentum+ hip etc ... same as we move across the face of the dummy , we are making contact with the dummy arms as we make small steps using momentum+hip+arms/elbows ....The legs are the most powerful muscle group and using the short driving steps into the ground we get exactly what we put in coming back out through structure, like any sport using dynamic movement, it has to be generated from the extension of the legs ....weight lifters /power lifters are some of the fastest sprinters , go figure.
Tyson came from the crouch upwards using tremendous amounts of leg in any strike he made ...

po pai aka shoving with 2 hands or one is also using hips and can generate a lot of force but in the dummy we focus these shoves to coincide with the momentum of stepping into the dummy axis line with elbows in hips drive forwards to Pamela and use only enough shove energy to regain your striking ability ...dont over use the power becasue you suddenly got hot for Pam you dont want to lose the controlling flow of your attack .

The inward turned toes of the system develops having feet that dont turn outwards for the same ideas above to work ie they dont turn out and open up the hip joint to become destabilized ..we dont fight with inward toes as ygkym but due to the training our lead foot will turn slightly inwards to gain the hipjoint 'lock' and give better support. an easy way to show this is to have a guy stand with one leg leading and shove them from the side sharply ..if they turn their toes inward they feel the hip joint /pelvis become supportive , the same support for lateral forces we generate. have them turn the toe straight forwards or outward and shove to give them the lesson in stability , to regain the support they will turn their toes inwards.

During drills for seung ma toi ma the legs , knees, feet get positional corrections too..along with Pamela hips facing and pumping, shoulders aimed along a line, elbows to correspond with the above... momentum and explosive engagements with the unsuspecting can have good results.

The dan gwan of the Pole is also generated from the 'hips to Pam' as well...the leading elbow always sits in the 'pocket' of the leading hip direction , so we use this elbow/hip action 'thrusting' to drive energy out to the tip of the pole to deflect with ballistic force while we dont waver from the striking line after moving the opponents pole ...this force is very explosive and compact in nature ... like vt, explosive .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Student: Hey Paul, how do you know you have good body structure?
Paul: well, when I hit someone it hurts and they get "compromised".
Student: That's it?
Paul, well, when I protect myself or counter something I don't get "knocked on my ass".
Student: That's it?
Paul:Yeah, pretty much, a structure is only as good as what it is being used for at any given moment, it must be fluid and dynamic.
Student: Like Water?
Paul: WTF? stupid bruce lee metaphor crap, here let me show you.
*Later*
Student: Why am I in the hospital?
Paul: Your body structure sucked.

[m1k3]

I think a big part of the problem that I am having with this is the use of English translations for Chinese terms. To me a structure is static, solid and unmoving. A big building is a structure. It is a noun

What is being described is fluid, like surfing. Your whole body is making adjustments to retain balance in a dynamic environment. It is a process, a verb so to speak, and that is something that is difficult to describe, you have to feel it to do it. And you improve by practice.

Probably one of the hardest things to teach a beginner is how to use the whole body as a single movement rather than a bunch of body parts move in isolation one after the other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a big part of the problem that I am having with this is the use of English translations for Chinese terms. To me a structure is static, solid and unmoving. A big building is a structure. It is a noun

What is being described is fluid, like surfing. Your whole body is making adjustments to retain balance in a dynamic environment. It is a process, a verb so to speak, and that is something that is difficult to describe, you have to feel it to do it. And you improve by practice.

Probably one of the hardest things to teach a beginner is how to use the whole body as a single movement rather than a bunch of body parts move in isolation one after the other.

Structure is task specific, it can be static or dynamic.
A surfer has great structure for surfing, the same structure would suck if he had to left 100lbs over his head or even if his surd board was different.

Almost every sport teaches whole bod movement, I can't recall any that don't to be honest.
Its not hard to teach someone whole body movement, it really isn't.

[m1k3]

Its not hard to teach someone whole body movement, it really isn't.

This I disagree with. I have coached softball for over 15 years and teaching good batting skills to beginners is probably a big reason for all the gray hair I have. Trying to get them to shift their weight, throw there hands at the ball, rotate the hips and pull the bat through the plane of the pitch in a single fluid motion is difficult to say the least. What happens is most of them will pick it up and some will get quite good at it but it takes a lot of time and practice on the part of the new batter with input from the coach. The batter has to feel the correct movement from a good swing when they do it and that is something they have to learn on there own. They need to experience the "a-ha!" moment when it clicks in their head that that was a good swing.

Getting a noob to through a punch correctly or execute a sprawl or takedown is similar. The neural paths have to be trained to fire in the correct order across the entire body and the noob has to feel himself doing the movement. After a while it may seem simple but in the beginning it is a very difficult process to learn.