The Biggest Problem with Wing Chun

[YungChun]

Yeah not enough of those locking moves taught which aren't actually part of the curriculum in the first place..

Here's a newsflash for those visiting us from parallel worlds...

Yip Man was an unwilling teacher.


He taught because he had to..

He was also smart and saw where the whole CMA thing was going: Commercial.

Anyone who thinks he had any intention of mass popularizing (world wide) his most prized personal possession just doesn't get it.

It's like when you asked your smart azzed uncle to play cards with you when you were a kid.. He says he'll teach you a new game, and you say, great!

He then proceeds to fan the entire deck into the air---and tells you it's called 52 card pick up...

It's up to the intelligent student to put it together, Yip left enough clues for some folks to get a chunk.. But mileage will vary.

[namron]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???

Depends IMO, a lot of standing locks are like demos, flashy but hard to pull off against resisting opponents. Usually the smaller the joint manipulation the lower the % (again IMO and opinions vary, esp here on this forum ). Its a bit like fine motor skills versus gross motor skills under pressure.

Having said all that and having 'shopped around' other styles somewhat, one begins to get an overall appreciation of body mechanics the longer one trains and teaches (what bends, what breaks). I think a lot can be said for this and basic experimentation.

[Frost]

Yeah not enough of those locking moves taught which aren't actually part of the curriculum in the first place..

Here's a newsflash for those visiting us from parallel worlds...

Yip Man was an unwilling teacher.


He taught because he had to..

He was also smart and saw where the whole CMA thing was going: Commercial.

Anyone who thinks he had any intention of mass popularizing (world wide) his most prized personal possession just doesn't get it.

It's like when you asked your smart azzed uncle to play cards with you when you were a kid.. He says he'll teach you a new game, and you say, great!

He then proceeds to fan the entire deck into the air---and tells you it's called 52 card pick up...

It's up to the intelligent student to put it together, Yip left enough clues for some folks to get a chunk.. But mileage will vary.

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

[SoCo KungFu]

This argument is a little pointless, don't you think? Why does it have to be an issue of one or the other? Its no coincidence that the schools that are heavy in producing competitors also will have the most efficient training methods and largest pool of skilled and enthusiastic sparring partners to train with. Whether you want to say its a cause and effect, or a mentality thing or whatever doesn't really matter. Find one and you'll more than likely find the other.

As for the rest of the people, I'm thinking most on these boards are a lost cause. Either people will wake up and realize what they don't have and seek it out, or they won't and hopefully they won't have to learn the hard way. Personally I think most people don't want the real thing, they just want to romanticize about all of it.

And as for secrecy, I honestly don't think there's a whole lot of "secrecy" not today. You see more the results of secrecy maybe from years past. Today, you see more of just a bunch of people that don't really know wtf they're doing. Because they were never taught and/or they never bothered to actually test their stuff to realize they were being shafted from the get-go.

[SoCo KungFu]

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

That's what I'm thinking. I don't really think it is. Of course everyone wants to say, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Baby done drowned yo...

How much do you got to jack up a cake before you just throw it out in the trash and start over from scratch?

[t_niehoff]

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

For me, I spent years learning it and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore.

[Frost]

That's what I'm thinking. I don't really think it is. Of course everyone wants to say, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Baby done drowned yo...

How much do you got to jack up a cake before you just throw it out in the trash and start over from scratch?

I agree these days it’s so easy to find a club that produces good fighters and keeps nothing back from its students, why bother learning something that might work if you really really research it, train with various different teachers who learned differently from Yip man depending on the year they started training, how long they trained and what he was taking at the time

and at the end if you manage to do all that and find the gold at the end of the rainbow what have you got.... a system that is so much better than what everyone else is training....not from the evidence from his senior guys the few everyone agree got something special (WSL William Cheung etc ) they were good fighters but they and their guys didn’t dominate in full contact environments but they did respectably. But is being respectable enough if you have to put all that effort in?

[Frost]

For me, I spent years learning it and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore.

i understand this, which is why I argued that a new person needs a coach who has fought/competed otherwise you might end up in this position, having invested so much time and effort you don't feel able to just drop it, you have trained in something that doesn't work that well and needs constant adjustment for so long you can't let it go.

its not the students fault he has put his time and trust in a person that simply can't teach him what he wants...maybe through no fault of his own

[t_niehoff]

i understand this, which is why I argued that a new person needs a coach who has fought/competed otherwise you might end up in this position, having invested so much time and effort you don't feel able to just drop it, you have trained in something that doesn't work that well and needs constant adjustment for so long you can't let it go.

its not the students fault he has put his time and trust in a person that simply can't teach him what he wants...maybe through no fault of his own

I think many, if not most, people teaching WCK are actually doing a huge disservice to their students. They're actually making them worse fighters, not better fighters. Most people in WCK are in my view training to fail.

As I see it, like all TMAs, WCK has two parts -- the curriculum and applying that curriculum (fighting). The way TCMAs, including WCK, is classically taught, the two are divorced. You learn and practice the curriculum, the forms, drills, dummy, etc. But learning the curriculum won't teach you how to effectively use it.

Serious problems arise when people don't appreciate that distinction. And, when they listen to people with little to no real (fighting) skill, whether their sifu or grandmaster, tell them how they should do things. This is the blind leading the blind. And that is training to fail.

My view is that you can't teach application if you aren't already successfully and consistently doing it in quality sparring. Application IS what you are doing in sparring, not "examples" of how you think WCK should work. So, if you are not doing it in fighting, then just teach the curriculum and let your student/trainee go do the work (of learning how to use he curriculum) themselves -- get out of the way of their development.

[Dragonzbane76]

the problem with wing chun?

YOU GUYS B!TCH TO MUCH...END OF STORY.

[Ultimatewingchun]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???

***I assume you're talking about TWC, right? Well Niersun, Grandmaster Cheung has been teaching moves like you describe openly since day one of going very public and world-wide with TWC, ie.- back in the early 1980's.

So no, if you haven't seen the moves until recently it's not due to secrecy, per se...but probably because there's so much emphasis on striking within the art - and the chi-na moves are not as high percentage in effectiveness.

In short, a good number of the moves have always been taught openly through the years that a student is on the road to the Gold Sash - and long before getting a Red Sash.

[chusauli]

But I would add this about what you didn't say:

In addition to the giant ego problem stuff you pointed out - secrecy in wing chun has been an enormous problem.

Enormous out-of-control egos...and Enormous amounts of out-of-control secrecy.

It's both.

Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?

[taojkd]

Dogma.

No one is trying to evolve the system. No one is testing it. The curriculum is standardized. LT has his own (even trademarked/copywrited). Cheung has his own. Moy yat has his. WSL has his.

Other striking systems are already using some WC techniques into its practice.

Muay Thai has incorporated boxing punches/combos/defenses into their system.
I've even been shown some bridging techniques from a muay thai instrcutor with a WC/JKD background get into the clinch safer.

BJJ has incorporated more wrestling into their curriculum. Before it was either a judo throw or running/flailing at the guys legs for a double leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?

Stagnation and eventually, death.

[taojkd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?
Stagnation and eventually, death.

But before that will come the commercialization phase. Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from Wing Chun is made. Wing Chun the T-shirt. Wing Chun, the lunchbox. Wing Chun the coloring book...